Bruce Tuncks Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Does anybody know why RAAus prohibits engine-off operation? It could be argued that this should be an essential part of training, if done where there is a safe landing available if the engine does not restart. There have been some fatalities where the pilot has clearly lost control in panic at the strange silence heard for the first time ever. There are a few possible reasons: To avoid encroaching on GFA "territory" ; Because CASA ordered it; Because it has been decided that the risks outweigh the benefits; and because many instructors would be afraid to do the exercise. The benefits of glider experience have been written about in the magazine, so maybe it has been decided that a GFA club should be the only way this experience be allowed. Or another reason I haven't thought of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Insurance companies may not like the idea either ? (be it aircraft, professional or public liability) ......................... then there is a case for there is no reason why an insurance company should not like it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Engine stops are permitted with a CFI in appropriate conditions. And IMHO should form part of the standard training syllabus. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Motz, I agree!......... I wonder how many instructors would be capable? Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 All of them I would hope..!!!.. At least the senior Instructors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Was included towards the end of my training, CFI looked straight at me defying me to panick, I had been in the same model aircraft not long before when the engine took a break so it was not a big trill. It is very peaceful though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 All of them I would hope..!!!.. At least the senior Instructors. My CFI switched her off and informed me I had to land it , a worthwhile lesson I've never forgotten , Matty 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It's good stuff. There are lots of positive learning points we can learn, as well as help get over the ' shock' factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 My instructor (ex RAF wartime instructor) used to switch the fuel off when you weren't looking, it taught us to switch fuel tanks as the first instinctive action. Several times I spotted him in the corner of my eye slowly sliding his hand down between the seats so I would pretend I hadn't noticed and casually looked out of my window; my reaction time always impressed him. This was training in Guernsey, however, I have never had this with any instructor in Australia, it has always been a reduce power to idle but not too quickly to avoid engine damage however I have done complete shut downs myself in rec aircraft including landings without power. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfox1 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 When l was doing training my instructor turn off the engine on about eight occasions then l had to do my emergence engine failure procedure ,it was great learning actual engine failure l had to land it every time should be taught to every student ,l think because you really know when the noise stops what to do .. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yep, part of my training too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 The complete silence with an engine stoppage also enables you to monitor your heart beat as you can hear it quite clearly. . Alan. 1 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 My instructor (ex RAF wartime instructor) used to switch the fuel off when you weren't looking, it taught us to switch fuel tanks as the first instinctive action.Several times I spotted him in the corner of my eye slowly sliding his hand down between the seats so I would pretend I hadn't noticed and casually looked out of my window; my reaction time always impressed him. This was training in Guernsey, however, I have never had this with any instructor in Australia, it has always been a reduce power to idle but not too quickly to avoid engine damage however I have done complete shut downs myself in rec aircraft including landings without power. Alan. I don't remember my instructor ever doing a complete shut off (GA), but he had a nasty habit of pulling the throttle to idle about 100ft up after takeoff. It concentrated the mind wonderfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 My 912ULS ideals at 1700rpm on the ground but will not go below 2000rpm at best glide speed of 59 knots. So I suspect that the glides I achieve in practice are being extended somewhat. It would be good to try it with a dead engine and see how different it is. I might ask an instructor whether he is willing! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Pulling the power back to idle is the nearest most trainees get to a stopped engine. Some on this forum have claimed that a prop creates more drag when idling than when stationary. I have it on good authority that the opposite may be true. Our training should prepare pilots for more rapid loss of height than when we cut to idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PA. Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I was only reading this article today. http://www.wingsbywerntz.com/1033-engine-out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It was apart of my training as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't remember my instructor ever doing a complete shut off (GA), but he had a nasty habit of pulling the throttle to idle about 100ft up after takeoff. It concentrated the mind wonderfully. Seeing a prop blade all quiet and still in the windscreen gets you kinda concentrated too, I've never had an engined stopped in GA though, I'm sure it's pretty hard on the cylinders, but the good old 912 is more than up for it. I've had a couple of engine problems and having had very good engine failure training is worth more than gold when the sh1t hits the fan Matty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Seeing a prop blade all quiet and still in the windscreen gets you kinda concentrated too, I've never had an engined stopped in GA though, I'm sure it's pretty hard on the cylinders, but the good old 912 is more than up for it. I've had a couple of engine problems and having had very good engine failure training is worth more than gold when the sh1t hits the fanMatty Isn't the aim to keep the fan out of the sh1t? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Isn't the aim to keep the fan out of the sh1t? Yes Bill teaches you with engine off…it makes a big difference surprisingly but always done in the right place…..I think its the peace and quiet that really helps the concentration too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 When that prop is stopped it really sharpens your focus…I enjoyed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Didn't get engine-off training unfortunately, just at idle revs but on the positive side engine failure training was right down to (well just above) the paddock, none of this 500 feet stuff - 500mm is good. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Pulling the power back to idle is the nearest most trainees get to a stopped engine. Some on this forum have claimed that a prop creates more drag when idling than when stationary. I have it on good authority that the opposite may be true. Our training should prepare pilots for more rapid loss of height than when we cut to idle. I would suggest tht it may vary between aircraft, my Drifter with it's 70 inch wood prop (on a Verner), glides further with the engine stopped, my 95.10 loses thrust and the glide is much shorter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That's where glider time comes in helpful. No engine, no panic, fly the aircraft. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That's where glider time comes in helpful. No engine, no panic, fly the aircraft. The bloke I fly with started out in gliders and is definitely a cool cucumber when the engine burps, doesn't mean he doesn't take it seriously, but gets on and does what needs to be done. Landing without the engine is just another skill we could all be better at, if that means time in gliders then maybe it wouldn't do any of us any harm. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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