farri Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Idiots killing themselves since Jesus was a boy Sure, but I don`t think there would be too may who would "kill Themselves" intentionally, I believe most people do the best they know, to do. Frank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Bob, ATSB usually publish a prelim report with in 30 days of an accident they attend. e.g. the Mudgee RV6 fatal accident on 14 Sep last year.Prelim report published 31 Oct. http://www.atsb.com.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-149.aspx You are correct , and in this incident they did give a fair mount of information for a preliminary report. Maybe some reason eg. many recent fatal base/final turn incidents . Also note the fact that the accident occurred over six months ago and the investigation is still only 60% complete . The other thing that I have mentioned on these forums , and highlighted in this Mudgee report ,is the importance of turning on the GPS even for short local flights , a big help for the investigations team .....Bob . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The thing is if you want people to wait for the investigation results they need to be accessable otherwise it is a silly request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Sure, but I don`t think there would be too may who would "kill Themselves" intentionally, I believe most people do the best they know, to do.Frank. Sometimes judgement gets clouded by get-there-itouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 There would be many reasons to cloud judgment, and that goes for all of us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 There would be many reasons to cloud judgment, and that goes for all of us. For many of us, not knowing what we don't know probably causes more cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 For many of us, not knowing what we don't know probably causes more cloud. The million $$$ question," How do I know, what I don`t know"? Frank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The million $$$ question," How do I know, what I don`t know"? :scratching head:Frank. In your case, it probably wouldn't be much, but you would be surprised how true this saying is for people in many industries and walks of life. They may go through a certain course, or be taught by a certain person, either of which could be considered scanty, but they don't know that, and they get a Certificate or a Licence, and even then may go through a large part of their life, then BANG - an event they were not taught to guard against changes their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The million $$$ question," How do I know, what I don`t know"? Frank. That's easy Frank, just ask someone (anyone) on a forum somewhere.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 In your case, it probably wouldn't be much. I know what I know and I`m happy to stay with that! If I want to know more, I am prepared to learn it. They may go through a certain course, or be taught by a certain person, either of which could be considered scanty, but they don't know that, and they get a Certificate or a Licence, and even then may go through a large part of their life, then BANG - an event they were not taught to guard against changes their life. So,what`s the answer? Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Evans Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 In your case, it probably wouldn't be much, but you would be surprised how true this saying is for people in many industries and walks of life.They may go through a certain course, or be taught by a certain person, either of which could be considered scanty, but they don't know that, and they get a Certificate or a Licence, and even then may go through a large part of their life, then BANG - an event they were not taught to guard against changes their life. But in life there are many things that change I don't think anyone could be fully taught for every acurance 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I know what I know and I`m happy to stay with that! If I want to know more, I am prepared to learn it.So,what`s the answer? Frank. Never stop learning (making the effort to keep up with the latest) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Evans Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I think a good pilot never stop learning as that would also apply to life in general. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I agree Doug, Some are capable of thinking for themselves and learning and others arn`t, even when they are taught. Sticking to flying Ultralights, I`ll stretch my neck and go one further! In the early days of the Ultralight movement, those who were capable, learnt and moved on, some of us went on to teach others, those who wern`t capable perished. I want to make it clear at this point, that I`m not saying that wasn`t tragic, because it was. Due to the accident rate it was thought by some, that better training was needed, so a lot of changes were made, more endorsements implemented, evermore regulations and things to learn, right up to the present day, Ops manual 7! I was there with Ops manual 1. and it was some pressure from me that got us Ops manual 2. Well guess what?......... Take a good look at the accident rate of the last couple of years!....What`s changed? Frank. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The name and the planes. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 More people flying and bigger distances attempted. Also, I don't believe we give the students the best chance of survival in the way we teach things. It's dumbed down. One example stalling. It will NEVER happen like that even if you fell asleep. Turn to final is a classic . Pull it too tight and a bit of extra rudder and she is over on it's back and going to land on the spinner. Unusual attitude recovery. Doesn't have to be gut wrenching aerobatics. Just the basics.. The elevator position stalls the plane and who's got their hand on that? Nev 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 One example stalling. It will NEVER happen like that even if you fell asleep. Turn to final is a classic . Pull it too tight and a bit of extra rudder and she is over on it's back and going to land on the spinner. Too true Nev! Not long ago I was competing in a spot landing comp. I was flying a right hand circuit as required and was much too high on a very tight base so I opened the barn doors and flew a curving base in a side slip. Nose pretty much level, tad below. Bit more than 30 deg bank. Speed ok I thought. Done it heaps of times. Then she tried to stall and drop a wing...oops. Bank = increased stall speed. Flaps = bit of rudder blanking. But also wind shear on final from the trees on the crosswind side causing a sudden drop in the airspeed. And it all happened PDQ. Fortunately, being a very well mannered girl with the sort of intelligence that is only accrued with age (the Auster, not me) it un-happened almost as quickly when I shoved the nose down and stopped the turn with some rudder. Watch that wind shear; especially if your aircraft has a low stall speed and you are using it. Kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I would hate to have most of you guys on a jury, that is for certain. You would have the defendant hung drawn an quartered before the Judge had finished his morning tea, after swearing in the jury. Circumstances and facts that's all that matters because unless you are an expert in a relevant field your opinion is worth nothing more than a bucket full of cods wallop. Please desist with all the hearsay and pub gossip let the poor bloke rest in peace for the time being and wait for the coronial report to be tabled. If there is a real safety issue found early into the matter which is either airframe or engine related we will be advise sooner rather than later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Lets face it the real safety issue here is knowing when to fly and when not to. Lets look at the facts Mates 60th birthday party Crap weather Have to get there Fly the direct route across a lot of crap terrain (which I wouldn't fly in any single) With all of the above engine and airframe don't matter. All a recepie for disaster Do I know what happened "no" but my opinion for what its worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Kaz. Why was the stall speed Increased in the slip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Because I was banking fairly hard to make the turn onto final as I side slipped as well. Kaz Edit to fix my English Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Lets face it the real safety issue here is knowing when to fly and when not to.Lets look at the facts Mates 60th birthday party Crap weather Have to get there Fly the direct route across a lot of crap terrain (which I wouldn't fly in any single) With all of the above engine and airframe don't matter. All a recepie for disaster Do I know what happened "no" but my opinion for what its worth. Aldo, This pilot was a very experienced and current cross- country pilot ( are you ?)...he recently completed a trip halfway around the country flying mostly over remote areas, in all sorts of Weather. Recently he stayed firmly planted on the ground awaiting out weather for two days in the North, he was not in the habit of going until the WX was ok. I trust his judgement in deciding to go when he did. I can tell you now, you need to reserve your judgement as this may well turn out not to be a WX related accident at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Kaz, sounds like a nasty one mate!! The stall speed doesn't have to increase with bank :) and in a descent like you describe, it shouldn't. Worth a new thread tho. I don't think this is the right one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 At the time, I was on the farm 44km NE from the crash site. We were doing weather dependent work (herbicides etc) so keeping a close eye on the BOM radar. There were light showers (white & light blue) on the radar and we received only a 'trace' in the gauge for that day. I remember hearing a plane or two in the distance, but I couldn't tell you what time, and I doubt now that I heard the J258. Winds were close to calm that morning (0-2.5knots NE), Relative Humidity was 65-85%, visibility was good. These are local observations from our paddock. Unfortunately I did not get an aviation forecast for that day. This was a very experienced pilot, aircraft builder and designer, who has erred on the side of caution before. He allowed plenty of time to get to his destination, he sent a text with his ETA shortly after take off (according to media reports), he was familiar with the route. There are many explanations that don't include pilot error. Let's wait for the evidence to be gathered first. One issue we should be looking at concerns the ELT or PLB or what-ever. My old ELT was armed to activate in an impact. His beacon did not activate, so I wonder if we should be looking at recommending those that do, or a system of activation for those that need manual activation? Should we invest in something like "Spot" to trace our movements when flying? Sue 6 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Thanks for the report Sue. I quite agree about the "Spot" thing for several reasons - EPIRBs seem to regularly fail to go off for various reasons. The cost of up to 17 helicopters and 5-8 planes as well as the two Dorniers to spend more than two days searching in the wrong place must have been astronomical and accurate last position information would potentially have reduced the search to a matter of an hour or two with a couple of helicopters. Most particularly, anything that reduces the time taken to find the crash site would make the difference between life and death for any seriously injured occupants. I'm not saying we shouldn't have EPIRBS, but that we should use the Spot technology as well, anything that gives position information and isn't a risk in itself (eg adds a lot of weight perhaps) is welcome on my flights ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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