planedriver Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Once things go a bit dark it is too late. All depends on the level of darkness selected, the right photocell units can be set to whatever level you like, even detecting an oxy cutter just making it's way into a vault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 We cannot assume this was the case in the accident....to be fair to the pilot. Until an investigation is completed we are just making assumptions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Let's not get carried away.Flying into cloud is one of the biggest killers in GA flying too. This is being hammered into me. I am constantly doing instrument flight under the hood, not because you want to fly into cloud, but because you need to be able to do a 180 turn back out should you inadvertently fly into IMC. Someone said earlier you shouldn't fly into cloud because there may be an IFR flight in there (you should be following the hemispherical rules anyway so this wont be a problem) but this is not true. You should not do it because your brain is not capable of dealing with the situation. The main risk is to yourself. The old casa rule, you have 178 seconds on average to live if you fly into IMC. When I was under instruction for my GFPT, one of the instructors had me fly the plane straight and level with a blind fold on. You think you are flying straight and level, but when I took the blind fold of I was in a spiral dive. I knew something was wrong because of the engine noise, but I could not correct it for some reason, it just felt wrong to pull up. My brain tricked me. If anyone has not done this excercise, I highly recommend you do. I have about 5-6 hours of IF time under the hood now. Even though I can fly straight and level, and perform rate one turns as well as flying on headings, I still dont like it and I still dont feel comfortable. When flying VFR, you dont think about flying the plane, you just do it and react to it. When flying IF, it takes every part of my brain to process the instruments and maintain a workflow that will not kill me. I am not sure I could do it and process info from ATC yet. All this stuff has done one thing though, its given me a healthy respect for the dangers of flying into IMC. Even flying around cloud in VMC is fraught with danger as you are unable to sight other aircraft who might be doing the same thing. As much fun as it is to play in the cloud, I tend to give all cloud a wide berth if I can. EDIT: BTW. I am not saying this is what the pilot of that aircraft did. I am just putting out some info I have learned from GA training since there is a lot of talk about it. I was almost going to suggest that the flying into IMC stuff be taken to another thread last night, but being a new player on this forum I dont want to get out of place just yet! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 ^ There are hundreds of posts and a couple of threads on VFR pilots flying into IMC. They will be found under the search function, hours upon hours of good reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Removing instruments?? The AHI made them fly IMC?? AOA made them stall?? Next youll want GPS banned because it gets people lost More information is always helpful, how you choose to use it is a human factor 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Does anyone have a a NAIPS Area Briefing for Area 40 valid from 2300 UTC 18/04/15? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Then let me know how we can go about that while still fitting in with the state based statutory authorities rules? ALL FATAL RAAus accidents to be investigated by ATSB. Problem solved! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 All depends on the level of darkness selected, the right photocell units can be set to whatever level you like, even detecting an oxy cutter just making it's way into a vault. Planey, you may have missed the regulation change. Previously we had to keep a vertical separation of 500 feet from cloud, which led to us dropping altitude down to the minimum 500 feet, and that was a recipe for falling into the trap of being squeezed to the point of no return, we are now legally required to maintain, below 10,000 feet, a horizontal visibility of 5000 feet, which gives us ample time to take evasive action. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 ALL FATAL RAAus accidents to be investigated by ATSB. Problem solved! why? most are pilot error. It all costs money at the end of the day 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 and a bit of string is good enough for RAAus aircraft you forgot the duck tied to the string - an essential for wet weather flying. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Until an investigation is completed we are just making assumptions here. And there lies the problem we don't get the result of the investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 ALL FATAL RAAus accidents to be investigated by ATSB. Problem solved! Better yet, All Fatal aircraft accidents, regardless of their registration. Planey, you may have missed the regulation change. Previously we had to keep a vertical separation of 500 feet from cloud, which led to us dropping altitude down to the minimum 500 feet, and that was a recipe for falling into the trap of being squeezed to the point of no return, we are now legally required to maintain, below 10,000 feet, a horizontal visibility of 5000 feet, which gives us ample time to take evasive action.[ATTACH=full]35273[/ATTACH] It's actually 5000 meters visibility, and it shouldn't be confused with distance from cloud (which is 1500 meters horizontally). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Better yet, All Fatal aircraft accidents, regardless of their registration.It's actually 5000 meters visibility, and it shouldn't be confused with distance from cloud (which is 1500 meters horizontally). And 1000ft vertically unless below 3000amsl or 1000 agl and if below 3000amsl or 1000 agl the vertical limit is just 'clear of cloud' of course you have to maintain your 5000 metres of horizontal vis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Better yet, All Fatal aircraft accidents, regardless of their registration.It's actually 5000 meters visibility, and it shouldn't be confused with distance from cloud (which is 1500 meters horizontally). Yes, sorry, classic Human factors blunder 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Some people put a Artificial Horizon in their plane in case they might need it one day. I think if you don't have one you remove the temptation to push on when you shouldn't. Of course different if you are current IFR and have the correct equiped plane. I don't see an issue so long as you are trained to use it, as you should be with every piece of equipment in your plane. My VFR aircraft has a small backup attitude display. But I also have thousands of hours instrument time. I'm extremely respectful of, but not afraid of cloud. Naturally I have no plans whatsoever to even attempt to fly this aircraft in it (it lacks several IFR requirements and is not designed for that anyway). However not being afraid of cloud is a double-edged sword, in that I'm quite happy to fly on cloudy days so long as I can maintain VFR conditions without too many issues. In the event I ever make a serious error of judgement on one of those cloudy days (touch wood), I want to at least be able smack a cricket bat over my own head when I get home so I'll remember what not to do again, and maybe even let someone else benefit from my story. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Gyro instruments cost a bit to maintain. Turn and slip and altimeter with magnetic compass and airspeed you can fly IFR but it isn't easy. Gyro instrument's can topple and were usually caged to protect them from damage if you are doing aero's. Glass is probably cheaper, but few I have flown are functioning well in U/L's, and the Instructor can hardly see the screen at the angle it's being viewed.. The ARTIFICIAL horizon replaces the true /actual one as a reference in Attitude instrument flying, but you SCAN all the others to confirm. I had one roll on T/O at night at rotation so I don't trust any one instrument EVER. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I won`t accept any excuse ( nor should anyone else) for anyone required to fly VFR getting into IMC. Instead of focusing on how to get out of IMC focus on not getting into it, in the first place. Frank. 2 11 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 It's worth while trying not to get into it. The question remains though do we do some training? I've often taken the view that to teach it is to encourage it ....PERHAPS.? People will continue to get into the poo, Frank.You can get caught out with a fast changing situation. Without any training they won't last long, in IMC. On that we will probably agree. If you do smallish local flights it probably won't happen. If you can and are prepared to outland then you avoid it, also. But one day...... a couple of things will happen and you are there. Fog can form in minutes under some circumstances. Not a lot have a good working knowledge of meteorology, and forecasts are not infallible. Even a dust storm can compromise you in a short time. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I dont have an autopilot but the Trutrak ones have a panic button that executes a 180 degree turn and takes you back along the route that brought you into trouble. Cost is around $3500 and great insurance at that price for machines that can be fitted. If I was buying a new plane I would have it. Im sure its not infallible but would be better than me at extricating the aircraft and its valuable contents from an inadvertant IMC entry. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 It's worth while trying not to get into it. The question remains though do we do some training? I've often taken the view that to teach it is to encourage it ....PERHAPS.? People will continue to get into the poo, Frank. Nev Granted, Nev, however, it takes us back to the age old question, " What direction should the RAA be taking"? GA, has been instructing for IMC for a long time before I started flying and to my knowledge they still do, so, it`s very simple really, anyone want some training for IMC, go to a GA school, but remember, RAA currently requires you fly VFR. Frank. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 make ballistic parachutes compulsory for all RAA aircraft, save a few more lives. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 make ballistic parachutes compulsory for all RAA aircraft, save a few more lives. They wont help if you're too low to the ground to deploy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 make ballistic parachutes compulsory for all RAA aircraft, save a few more lives. We have too much compulsory stuff at the moment, I don't think we need more of that. Make it compulsory for yourself by all means, but please leave me out of it. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 the ballistic parachute is still the best option. the Europeans have had them for years and are a proven life saver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 No doubt true FT and I myself have thought of getting one and if I built another plane I would certainly be getting one BUT I DON'T think we should make them mandatory. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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