fly_tornado Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 this will be an expensive accident, looks like to much elevator. that merlin was at full power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 that merlin was at full power ] That's a Griffen not a Merlin, makes it even more of a handful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Have a look at the elevator position. More likely the brakes didn't fully release. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Don't know what went wrong there elevator looks neutral and then up maybe too much power to quickly. With those things you have to open the throttle slowly in stages to get some airflow over the control surfaces before full power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I 'm sure it's not his first flight in it. I'll have another close look. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Looks like initially left rudder applied then right too late and perhaps a bit of right brake. I know the griffon engine turns opposite to the merlin and you set a lot of rudder trim on before rolling. I doubt it had full power on at that stage. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I thought it was too slow for that much power. Yes you would think someone sitting in that seat would be capable of flying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 The ground might have been too soft also. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Watching a mass take off of 13 Spitfires at Duxford a few years ago, they don't let the tail get up to a normal flying attitude while on the ground. They hold the tail low until they fly off in that attitude. When we first see this Spit it is pretty much at a flying attitude & neutral elevator, maybe the tail should not be allowed to get that high to start with. Great to see people rush in & lift the aircraft to get access to the pilot. Around here people would most likely be kept away & the poor pilot would have to wait for a crane to arrive or the rescue truck would cut up an only moderately damaged, rare aircraft & wreck it completely. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Different angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Great to see people rush in & lift the aircraft to get access to the pilot. Around here people would most likely be kept away & the poor pilot would have to wait for a crane to arrive or the rescue truck would cut up an only moderately damaged, rare aircraft & wreck it completely. From the other video you can see the marshals actually gesturing for people to come and help. I had the same thought - fear of litigation if bystanders got injured would prevent the same thing happening here (or the US, or UK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 That's just so sad 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red750 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Freeze frame of the moment the prop touched the ground. Compare the attitude to this image a second or two before liftoff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Not being a spitfire pilot, I won't make out I am. Just wouldn't want to be stuck under that thing if there was a fire. The spectators were brave, that's for sure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Freeze frame of the moment the prop touched the ground.[ATTACH=full]50759[/ATTACH] Compare the attitude to this image a second or two before liftoff. [ATTACH=full]50761[/ATTACH] Red750 you have shown nicely what I was describing in my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 There doesn't appear to be any elevator deflection to lower the tail. My guess is conrtols locked somehow. I can't imagine any competent pilot at that attitude wouldn't have had full up elevator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaFox Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 In the first video, at the moment the first dust is kicked up from the prop, the elevator is clearly seen rising rapidly along with full rudder deflection, although it was too late by that stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneL Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Watch the first post video again and you will see he does apply up elevator and right rudder as the prop contacts the ground. The nose down rotation happens quickly after the aircraft starts rolling and seems to catch the the pilot out. Question: How do the spitfire brakes work, do they use compressed air in any stage of the activation? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Am I seeing things or did the main spar carry-through break as it flopped inverted? The rear view of it inverted in the first video appears to show way more dihedral than normal, and as the helpers release the wing it appears to be loose. If that's right, is it a real Spit or a replica? I can't imagine a real Spit breaking the wing in such a minor event. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I would guess at the brakes being engaged still whether inadvertently activated or not fully released after run up. Didn't seem to be rolling overly freely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 I've noticed several recent spitfire accidents where the spar has broken, I'm guessing force at a certain angle the spar splits quit easily 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Watching a mass take off of 13 Spitfires at Duxford a few years ago, they don't let the tail get up to a normal flying attitude while on the ground. They hold the tail low until they fly off in that attitude. When we first see this Spit it is pretty much at a flying attitude & neutral elevator, maybe the tail should not be allowed to get that high to start with..... Exactly Mick..especially the later marques with the big props. They were designed to take off and land in the three point position and braking had to be done very carefully. The COG is only just behind the mains and they will overturn easily if a lot of care is not taken. When they were being run up, two or three airmen would sit on the tail to hold it down. Kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Am I seeing things or did the main spar carry-through break as it flopped inverted?The rear view of it inverted in the first video appears to show way more dihedral than normal, and as the helpers release the wing it appears to be loose. If that's right, is it a real Spit or a replica? I can't imagine a real Spit breaking the wing in such a minor event. It's a real spitfire. It's a PRXIX and has been flying in France since 2006 in the original config. Prior to that it flew in the USA with a griffon and contra prop setup from a Shackleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Different angle Not exactly a Spitfire pilot myself but tailwheel experience all the same. IMHO tail was up too high too soon too slow. It looked for all the world like this was the first time this guy had flown that plane. You can treat some tail draggers that way but not that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I've noticed several recent spitfire accidents where the spar has broken, I'm guessing force at a certain angle the spar splits quit easily Surprised if the spar was intact and not corroded if it did snap ... google "spitfire spar tubes" and take a look at what goes into each main spar flange. I've seen a new spar being built in the uk and that sucker ain't breaking with just the force from the weight of the plane in a low speed tip over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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