New fuel laws

[apm]

So if your calculations  said you COULD make your destination safely but someone arbitrarily said to you "I have suddenly decided to call the time frame fuel you have left unsafe for no better reason than I can so you must call Mayday" and so you'd do it and then have black marks against you or lose your licence because you did.

 

would  you see the problem then? 

Are you serious, running on reserve is running on empty, if done routinely, only a matter of time before you get a surprise. 

 

and how could you get a black mark for following the law? Black mark would be for pilots that fail to give “Mayday Fuel”.

 

 

[apm]

Yes fuel exhaustion is very serious, how is a strict liability law going to motivate a pilot to plan beter?do you think you can just call mayday, land and fuel up? Id expect at minimum a please s plain or punitive action, guarantee theres a penalty point attached for those letting it happen more than once in their careers

 

Also indicates you should land or divert rather than land without reserve intact. What you just outlined is now illegal apm

 

how does calling mayday fuel get a priority landing at any non controlled aerodrome ie. most of them?

 

Whats going to happen is is another regulation people will ignore and theres not much they can do about it.

Reserve fuel is not something that can ever be planned to be used, only there for when you f*** up. And get you out of trouble, whats wrong with telling the world you made a mistake and need priority, will make you a better person and pilot.

 

Any other pilot that does not give way to someone running on empty at a non-controlled aerodrome, would, I assume be in a bit of trouble.

 

Pilots that keep quiet are more likely to eventually win a Darwin award.

 

 

[M61A1]

Pilots that keep quiet are more likely to eventually win a Darwin award

And rules like this are not going to encourage anyone to speak up. Rules like this are far more likely to encourage them to shut up and take the risk.

 

 

[turboplanner]

How close do you really think you are to 30 minutes of fuel in the tanks when you think you have 30 minutes of fuel in the tanks?[ATTACH]38376.IPB[/ATTACH]

That's the point which is going over the heads of the genii.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can end up on low fuel through no fault of your own. The engine may have a recent fault and uses more than normal for it, or there can be a fuel leak somewhere. Even International RPT Jets have had fuel leaks  that required some gliding to remote islands. The "normal" fuel  gauges are not accurate for inflight monitoring on many aircraft. Legally they are not allowed to be the prime determinant of quantity.

 

         If you land off field,  It's much better to have power available to perform the most controlled landing possible, in what may be a less than optimum field. in some ways. If you wait till the engine stops you have given yourself a much harder task. Avoid that situation if you have control over it (and you do with fuel).

 

     While this NEW rule  is more orientated to Controlled airspace and Aerodromes, you can see in it a logical process. Mayday Is  a situation where all other radio traffic is supposed to shut up and give the most available priority to the affected aircraft. If in a group of aircraft Arriving and departing, that plane will get priority  as to arrival sequencing.  You should be put first in the Queue.

 

       You could say ,   Dumbtown Control,  XYZ is declaring an emergency due imminent fuel exhaustion. It would amount to the same thing without the priority and urgency the MAYDAY call gives.. I'm not sure we need to get too worked up about this one except it is NOT clear or unambiguous,.as it must be. to do the job properly. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

I’m really looking forward to the first time this happens to me in my non-radio ultralight ... do you think enough people will hear me if I yell mayday really loud or should I turn off the engine to make certain?

 

 

[SSCBD]

Ok reading all this is doing my head in.

 

For RAA pilots, 30 mins, is fine for most guys flying around as long as you know what your doing. 

 

FOR RAA GUYS ONLY  - So hands up first who has had ANY TYPE OF  engine failure over the last 30 years  and NOT put out a mayday call?  

 

Second - who flying a two stroke has not had 30 mins of fuel locally flying when you get back to your strip - be honest! I HAVE from from my local strip.

 

Third - anyone flying a point to point with a rotax four stroke is mad if they don't have reserve on board, but do you know the unusable amount in you aircraft that cant be counted.  And I cant see anyone out the back blocks hitting the mic key when they reach  28.5 mins of fuel in a ALA circuit. 

 

We are not flying twins or jets, so my rule of thumb is I flight plan 30 min reserve and also assume I burn 20 liters hour - instead of 17 or 18 per hour when going somewhere point to point which is providing further.  Usually I have full tanks eg, 100 liters at take off. 

 

Headwinds with aircraft flying around doing 80 kts or 115kts  cruise (which most of us do in RAA)  can make a big difference, so know your ground seed vs airspeed.

 

Example - headwinds  are  problem with those new to flying.  If you Flight plan for 115ks and your ground speed is 87 kts, = you will usually run out of fuel or need to divert. 

 

Also - If you are flying a single seat thruster with a 20 liter tank - its not much of a flight landing with 30 mins reserve. 

 

Oh for some common sense - from the gods at CASA.  Please we are not one size fits all. 

 

 

[spacesailor]

"Oh for some common sense - from the gods at CASA.  Please we are not one size fits all. "

 

NEVER.

 

The lawyer's don't speak that language !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Jaba-who]

APM wrote

 

“Are you serious, running on reserve is running on empty, if done routinely, only a matter of time before you get a surprise. 

 

and how could you get a black mark for following the law? Black mark would be for pilots that fail to give “Mayday Fuel”.”

 

For a  start it’s not running in empty it’s running on currently more than 45 minutes ( soon to be 30 minutes ) of fuel in the tank. 

 

If you are commercial it’s another 15% of flight time fuel plus if there was an inter or tempo in the weather forecast another 30 mins or 60 mins fuel. 

 

If you are landing with 5

 

minutes fuel I’d say sure make a call ( though probably Pan is more appropriate) 

 

But this rule says if even if you are going to land with 29 minutes of fuel you have to call Mayday. 

 

In fact the wording of the of the rule is that even before you get to your reserve -as soon as you CALCULATE that you will cut into your reserve prior to landing then if you can’t  land elsewhere ( still with your reserve intact) you have to call mayday. Therefore with potentially way more than reserve you have to call mayday. 

 

The biggest issue is not the safety it’s the likelihood that CASA will then take punitive  action against the pilot. CASA has a reputation of persecuting pilots for minimal or even no wrongdoing. 

 

 

[M61A1]

The biggest issue is not the safety it’s the likelihood that CASA will then take punitive  action against the pilot. CASA has a reputation of persecuting pilots for minimal or even no wrongdoing

DEFINATELY THIS.......

 

 

[apm]

APM wrote

“Are you serious, running on reserve is running on empty, if done routinely, only a matter of time before you get a surprise. 

 

and how could you get a black mark for following the law? Black mark would be for pilots that fail to give “Mayday Fuel”.”

 

For a  start it’s not running in empty it’s running on currently more than 45 minutes ( soon to be 30 minutes ) of fuel in the tank. 

 

If you are commercial it’s another 15% of flight time fuel plus if there was an inter or tempo in the weather forecast another 30 mins or 60 mins fuel. 

 

If you are landing with 5

 

minutes fuel I’d say sure make a call ( though probably Pan is more appropriate) 

 

But this rule says if even if you are going to land with 29 minutes of fuel you have to call Mayday. 

 

In fact the wording of the of the rule is that even before you get to your reserve -as soon as you CALCULATE that you will cut into your reserve prior to landing then if you can’t  land elsewhere ( still with your reserve intact) you have to call mayday. Therefore with potentially way more than reserve you have to call mayday. 

 

The biggest issue is not the safety it’s the likelihood that CASA will then take punitive  action against the pilot. CASA has a reputation of persecuting pilots for minimal or even no wrongdoing. 

So your happy to fly your aircraft with less than 2 litres remaining? How do you determine the exact amount of time in your tanks while flying?

 

I think it is impossible, thats why we have reserves, time remaining is made up from a calculation taken from many observations/assumptions. Only way you actually know your exact time remaining on most aircraft, is by visual inspection on the ground.

 

I’m not tottaly in agrreeance with this rule, I believe Pan would be more appropriate use for the initial call. Also I dont ever intend or plan to be in a situation to invoke the rule. But if I do end up in a situation where I will be dipping into the reserve to reach my destination, I have no problem broadcasting my predicament. I also like the idea of having an extra 15 min usable fuel onboard.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can carry as much as you like. The only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire, is the old saying. It's not quite right IF you overload with excess fuel it's not  wise if you have a performance or structural requirement to do so.

 

 Reserves are a complex thing. The in- flight reserve may become the fixed reserve, if you haven't needed it during the flight.. To operate this way you must be able to divert to a nominated "suitable"  alternate aerodrome,  en route which is closer as far as fuel requirements apply rather than continue on without legal reserves applying to the continued flight.. If you have experienced  planned or better  (head or tail) winds that amount of fuel saved can apply to ongoing requirements.  Commercial ops carry % of flight fuel and you should too otherwise anytime you get more adverse winds than you planned on or use more fuel you must divert to stay legal and IF you aren't you make the call. That is now the LAW.

 

        IF you aren't in radio range .( Not at a high enough  or close enough altitude), you won't be heard by the normal channels but someone flying in your vicinity may hear it and relay. You can't count on that so I wouldn't get worked up about it. Make the call and spend you brain power in finding some suitable place to land if you are THAT low on fuel. As has been mentioned you have no way of determining how much fuel you have to an exact figure unless you have some" collector" tank of a known capacity you know is still full and can be drained fully by the engine in flight... Most of us don't have such  a set up or have  reliable flowmeter that aggregates all the fuel ,used. This is an extra reason to err on the conservative side. The most expensive, well maintained  and reliable engines out there all need fuel to keep running... Nev

 

 

[Jaba-who]

So your happy to fly your aircraft with less than 2 litres remaining? How do you determine the exact amount of time in your tanks while flying?

I think it is impossible, thats why we have reserves, time remaining is made up from a calculation taken from many observations/assumptions. Only way you actually know your exact time remaining on most aircraft, is by visual inspection on the ground.

 

I’m not tottaly in agrreeance with this rule, I believe Pan would be more appropriate use for the initial call. Also I dont ever intend or plan to be in a situation to invoke the rule. But if I do end up in a situation where I will be dipping into the reserve to reach my destination, I have no problem broadcasting my predicament. I also like the idea of having an extra 15 min usable fuel onboard.

Do what you like. Follow whatever rule you like. 

doesnt  change reality. 

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Had an aero club meeting on the weekend and we discussed it. 

 

Final agreement from the assembled masses that not one person said they will follow these rules. 

 

The fear from everyone was the trouble they will get into from CASA when they make a mayday call. 

 

Everyone basically said they’ll just carry on as they currently do and make appropriate practical calls as to the real situation.

 

If they ever got ramp checked on landing they’ll fudge the calculations they made in flight and state the inaccuracy of the gauges etc. 

 

just goes to show CASA have made a world where pilots are so afraid of the them people will break the rules rather than risk exposure.  

 

 

[Yenn]

I have been ramp checked just after landing and the checkers would have no idea of how much fuel I had on board. They cannot tell by looking at the gauges, nor do they have the required dipstick. I don't think they were even interested when I was checked. it was just to be seen to be doing something at a fly in as part of their safety promotion. The real concern is that CASA seem to be completely losing the plot and their output is quite obviously not done by anyone with any practical knowledge of flying.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have just asked RAAus if they have looked at this matter and explained the silly side of it. Now wait and see.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I have been ramp checked just after landing and the checkers would have no idea of how much fuel I had on board. They cannot tell by looking at the gauges, nor do they have the required dipstick. I don't think they were even interested when I was checked. it was just to be seen to be doing something at a fly in as part of their safety promotion. The real concern is that CASA seem to be completely losing the plot and their output is quite obviously not done by anyone with any practical knowledge of flying.

Yep. Exactly. 

Thats my perception. There’s no way they can check what I’ve got nor how much is the reserve. since I can quote any figure I like as fuel burn rate depending where I set the throttle it’s a moot point. 

 

So so there’s no way it would be sensible to call mayday and draw attention and potential litigation against you. 

 

 

[coljones]

There is a lot of talk about how "much" people have in the tanks at the end of a flight of variable performance and environment. Perhaps we should be contemplating on how "little" fuel we have.  If you run out of juice on the ground you can call NRMA.  In the air, call AirServices.  It is particularly embarrassing if you run out of juice in the circuit when you could have been processes straight in with a "Mayday Fuel" (or being vectored and cleared to YSCN rather than risking an outlanding on the way to YSBK)

 

 

[Kenlsa]

If you look at the wing tank equiped Jabirus it is very difficult to get an accurate read on the wing root fuel gauges, seem that most are happy that they can still see the red needle somewhere in the gauge , let alone a 30 minute reserve. I haven't a clue how any inspector would be able to argue with you unless they do a complete drain and measure of the fuel on landing. My Sp 500 with the tank in the fuse is relatively easy to see if I am approaching the reserve.

 

Ken

 

 

[GraemeK]

I have been ramp checked just after landing and the checkers would have no idea of how much fuel I had on board. They cannot tell by looking at the gauges, nor do they have the required dipstick. I don't think they were even interested when I was checked. it was just to be seen to be doing something at a fly in as part of their safety promotion. The real concern is that CASA seem to be completely losing the plot and their output is quite obviously not done by anyone with any practical knowledge of flying.

What they will be checking on a ramp check will be your fuel calculations. I'm sure we all do them and write them down in our fuel log - starting with ground speed along track made good (distance along track, time), actual consumption (fuel used, time), time to destination (ground speed made good, distance to go, corrected for wind changes, etc), fuel required to destination (time, consumption plus variable reserve), fuel remaining (net of fixed reserve). And update regularly, and to 5 decimal places!

 

Remember maintaining a fuel log is on the ramp check checklist ...

 

 

[facthunter]

Since you can't rely on most gauges the difference in Estimated arrival time and actual can be  considered fuel difference to what you planned and that appears on your flight plan... If your consumption for planning purposes is say 20 litres/hr that's one litre every three minutes so if you arrive at a certain place 3 minutes  ahead of time you have one extra litre .  Big deal, but this is your basic fuel howgozit.  it can also be useful to work it in Ground nautical miles /litre based on actual wind component on the heading you have so your 20 litres may take you (80 Knots {your cruise TAS} minus headwind  component (actual) of say 8 knots gives you 72 knots groundspeed so each litre gives you 72/20 equals 3 and a 1/2 NM. Ground NM/ related to fuel flow rate is a good index of how far you can range on your remaining fuel. If the wind or your heading change it will change also so if you divert you need a new figure unless it's on track, and in front of you.. If winds are very  light use TAS as groundspeed, for your initial figures if you  are under pressure and up you burn rate to compensate  Always be conservative. Then recheck your calcs when you are more settled . This avoids a large error like applying the wind the wrong way. Check your Calcs two different ways. and make sure they agree. (Give the same answers.) Know your planes performance fuel and distance wise,  to pick a large error. Nev

 

 

[aro]

What they will be checking on a ramp check will be your fuel calculations.

This is an interesting area. There was an article about ramp checks in the USA where they said the FAA are clearly not allowed to ask about anything that happened in the past in a ramp check, because that is an investigation not a check. Investigations require additional powers and the person being investigated has specific rights etc.

 

You would hope the same applies here. Questions about fuel logs for a past flight etc. can clearly be used to establish whether you have broken the law. Do Australian pilots have rights in this area? The CASA ramp check checklists appear to be wish lists not necessarily based on the actual law. Of course, asserting your rights with CASA may also cause you difficulty...

 

 

[spacesailor]

Now there's something I never heard off, a "fuel log"

 

My daughter has an open fire and puts "fuel logs" on as they slowly burn away.

 

But On an aircraft, wood- burner is a newy to me. smacks of Echuca steam-boats.

 

But who knows whats around the corner !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Yenn]

This is the reply I received from Jill Bailey of RAAus.

 

"I understand the concerns of members and advise RAAus did provide a lengthy response to CASA when these changes were first proposed. We noted the 30 minute Mayday fuel requirement would be problematic for a number of RAAus aircraft which have minimal fuel carrying capacity.

 

Sadly, it appears this has not been sufficient to sway CASA and these new rules are proposed for implementation in November 2018.

 

Rest assured RAAus will be continuing to engage with CASA to achieve a more common sense approach. Keep an eye out on Sport Pilot and e-news information with updates."

 

I don't think Jill understands that the Mayday call was the real problem. I fail to see how having to carry 30 mins fuel reserve is a problem, given that most of us have been running on 45 min.  requirement.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

This is the reply I received from Jill Bailey of RAAus."I understand the concerns of members and advise RAAus did provide a lengthy response to CASA when these changes were first proposed. We noted the 30 minute Mayday fuel requirement would be problematic for a number of RAAus aircraft which have minimal fuel carrying capacity.

 

Sadly, it appears this has not been sufficient to sway CASA and these new rules are proposed for implementation in November 2018.

 

Rest assured RAAus will be continuing to engage with CASA to achieve a more common sense approach. Keep an eye out on Sport Pilot and e-news information with updates."

 

I don't think Jill understands that the Mayday call was the real problem. I fail to see how having to carry 30 mins fuel reserve is a problem, given that most of us have been running on 45 min.  requirement.

Yep. I agree Yenn. 

She appears to have missed the point.