Jump to content

18 K - Jesus Mary and Joseph - I saw this - is this really the cost STUDENTS are paying for RAA x Cert


Recommended Posts

I know its in CTA and with x country. But $417 dual.

The 5 theory lesson (NOTE why 5 has me confused) at $261 to me is stupid.

 

I undestand the med 2 cost for cta operations

 

Also I can hire the same aircraft type solo RATE OF $140 hour wet.

 

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Recreational Pilot Licence[/TD][TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]36* Fixed Price Lessons in Sling 2 @ $417 / lesson[/TD][TD]15,012[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5 Theory Lessons @ $261 / lesson[/TD][TD]1,305[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]RA-Aus Student Membership[/TD][TD]237[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Student Starter Kit (textbooks, logbook & manuals)[/TD][TD]397[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]CASA Class 2 Medical Exam & CASA processing fee[/TD][TD]314[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Pilot Certificate Flight Test & RA-Aus processing fee[/TD][TD]626[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Typical Total RA-Aus Pilot Certificate Cost[/TD][TD]$17,891 [/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Typical Total PC Logbook Hours[/TD][TD]40* hrs [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

* The syllabus and testing required to be awarded your Pilot Certificate is competency based and the actual hours taken to achieve competency will vary depending on your natural ability, individual rate of learning, frequency of lessons and your preparation and study between lessons. It may take you more or less time.

 

 

Prices are current as at 1 January 2020, and are subject to change.

 

I KNOW ITS IN CTA -BUT!!!!

Edited by SSCBD
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Well...... no one puts a gun to anyones head to make them sign up.

There are far better deals. Even travelling to a regional airport and staying in accomodation can be cost effective.

It wouldnt surprise me if the airport fees in a private/cta owned airport were extremely high.

Noting, not only the operation of a business out of one, but the hangar lease as well......

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are plenty of Pilots around who would have had training costs of over a million dollars. There's no limit to costs of training in aviation depending on the environment you operate in. . Costs you more than 15,000 a year to be a member of a golf club in Japan. IF the school does everything right by the book and the student I don't think those costs would be unreasonable. Note I'm not the off spring of some rich Parents and sold newspapers at 11 . I spent a figure equal to 1/2 a house at the time even though a scholarship helped a bit, before I got paid ONE cent in the flying game.. In RAAus and the old AUF even more so people did these things for the love of it and were even out of pocket to provide training for some U/L people. ( I've done THAT too, but it's NOT reasonable to expect it to be the "Norm".). Nev

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm at 40 hours and 10k already.

easily get to 12k, 15k is possible - struggling with PFL's

 

at least these guys are honest and up-front about the hours.

I see so many advertise it as 25 hours, I know its possible - but wonder what the true average is

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I see so many advertise it as 25 hours, I know its possible - but wonder what the true average is

That's appallingly irresponsible given that the minimum hours training for a driver's licence in Victoria is 120 hours.

The most ridiculous one I've read here was someone who thought he should be getting a certificate at 16 hours.

Just to get some of the weather varieties will balloon the hours out, but probably save you bending an aircraft trying to land.

If you try different aircraft types instead of mastering one, it takes exponentially more hours.

If you don't focus on your learning tasks or don't prepare for the lesson by being up to date with checks etc your hours balloon out.

If you just take a different instructor each time, your hours will balloon out.

If your paper studies are not ahead of your flying you'll diplicate hours.

I see a lot of students spending thousands of dollars more than they need to by making these mistakes. Although there might be some instructors out there who take advantage of this to pad the Flightline hours, I've never come across one, but plenty of instructors who don't take the student aside and shown him/hr how to make a plan.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, I do most of that...

But I just enjoy flying. I know my theory isn't where it needs to be - there is a reason I chose not to study after yr12, I don't have the ability to self motivate.

I can only fly certain days due to work, so I take whatever Instructor is available, whatever the weather is.

I know I could have soloed sooner, my first was at 30 hours... probably would have been 25 if I was only with the one instructor. But I find I pick-up something different from each one, and often they focus on a different aspect.

I duplicate hours because I take time between lessons, often a week or two. sometimes a month - in which case I request to just play around in the training area for a lesson to get the feeling back. Ive got 40 hours over 18 months+

 

Ive had an instructor or two recently say at the end of the lesson that its all about competency now, just have to build it up - and that takes time and practice.

there is no set time/method. Plus they are going beyond the RAA requirements, as they expect most students to move into the GA world - so teach/test to prepare for that. can see it in all their resources, often hear the "you wont be tested on this for RAA, but its good to know and understand now"

 

The heartening thing is a few of the small comment's. had an Instructor jump in and remark that he loves flying with me - as its easy for him. He doesn't do much, because I Know what I'm doing.

Also noticed the change in how they talk, now its about polishing things up instead of correcting. quite often will have in instructor jump in that I have flown with for a few months remark that they can see such a change with me being more comfortable.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the class 2 medical for an RAAus licence?

The remainder seem to be at GA, VH reg prices, but all you get at the end is an RAAus cert with X country endorsement.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Tubo planner

Yes a lot of that is going on,

But some people only want a fineday fly around the block certificate.

I noticed that the instruction for the practical flying was great but the theoryside was left to sort out yourselves. Untill that Exam time, then start over with more of the same.

Without the second organization a monopoly will keep raising the price until it runs out of paying suckers.

spacesailor

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

A "fine day, fly-around-the-block" certificate is not feasible, when you understand that once you're airborne, you're sharing airspace with a lot of other people with high-powered, high-performance aircraft. and correspondingly higher skill levels, and their expectations that others flying around them are suitably qualified and competent, to be able to handle all the adverse conditions they might suddenly encounter.

 

It's like saying, "I just want to go for a drive on the freeway, in heavy mixed traffic, but I only need to know how to put it in gear, and steer and brake".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the class 2 medical for an RAAus licence?

The remainder seem to be at GA, VH reg prices, but all you get at the end is an RAAus cert with X country endorsement.

I think the Class 2 Med is because that training organisation operates in a CTA zone.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Difference of cost and not in CTA

 

Redcliff Tecnam Eaglet Dual Hire $300 per hour

 

Boonah

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Tecnam Golf[/TD][TD]Dual:[/TD][TD]$240 p/h[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, I do most of that...

But I just enjoy flying. I know my theory isn't where it needs to be - there is a reason I chose not to study after yr12, I don't have the ability to self motivate.

I can only fly certain days due to work, so I take whatever Instructor is available, whatever the weather is.

I know I could have soloed sooner, my first was at 30 hours... probably would have been 25 if I was only with the one instructor. But I find I pick-up something different from each one, and often they focus on a different aspect.

I duplicate hours because I take time between lessons, often a week or two. sometimes a month - in which case I request to just play around in the training area for a lesson to get the feeling back. Ive got 40 hours over 18 months+

 

Ive had an instructor or two recently say at the end of the lesson that its all about competency now, just have to build it up - and that takes time and practice.

there is no set time/method. Plus they are going beyond the RAA requirements, as they expect most students to move into the GA world - so teach/test to prepare for that. can see it in all their resources, often hear the "you wont be tested on this for RAA, but its good to know and understand now"

 

The heartening thing is a few of the small comment's. had an Instructor jump in and remark that he loves flying with me - as its easy for him. He doesn't do much, because I Know what I'm doing.

Also noticed the change in how they talk, now its about polishing things up instead of correcting. quite often will have in instructor jump in that I have flown with for a few months remark that they can see such a change with me being more comfortable.

There's nothing wrong with any of that; my comments were not related to you so much as a convenient spot to put in some points that people can use if they want to lower their costs.

Right now you will be a better pilot than someone who booked a motel near the field for a couple of weeks and got his PC in 25 hours, all in the same weather pattern, at the same field, and most likely on the same runway and pattern.

The most important thing you said, in my opinion, was about the instructor who says he loves flying with you - that says a lot about you as a Pilot.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, I do most of that...

But I just enjoy flying. I know my theory isn't where it needs to be - there is a reason I chose not to study after yr12, I don't have the ability to self motivate.

I can only fly certain days due to work, so I take whatever Instructor is available, whatever the weather is.

I know I could have soloed sooner, my first was at 30 hours... probably would have been 25 if I was only with the one instructor. But I find I pick-up something different from each one, and often they focus on a different aspect.

I duplicate hours because I take time between lessons, often a week or two. sometimes a month - in which case I request to just play around in the training area for a lesson to get the feeling back. Ive got 40 hours over 18 months+

 

Ive had an instructor or two recently say at the end of the lesson that its all about competency now, just have to build it up - and that takes time and practice.

there is no set time/method. Plus they are going beyond the RAA requirements, as they expect most students to move into the GA world - so teach/test to prepare for that. can see it in all their resources, often hear the "you wont be tested on this for RAA, but its good to know and understand now"

 

The heartening thing is a few of the small comment's. had an Instructor jump in and remark that he loves flying with me - as its easy for him. He doesn't do much, because I Know what I'm doing.

Also noticed the change in how they talk, now its about polishing things up instead of correcting. quite often will have in instructor jump in that I have flown with for a few months remark that they can see such a change with me being more comfortable.

 

I had to leave school before year 12 because back then (early 70s) one could only become an apprentice if they were under 18. I think strangling a teacher played a part as well.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean, like haveing a " full heaveytruck" licence to drive any car, or all powered cycles to have a full motorcycle licence.

But the only one I deem needs rethinking in "passenger Trailers ".

At the moment its No license, No insurance, No roadworthy inspection !.

With a couple of defencless1kids in, on major hyways .

spacesailor

Link to post
Share on other sites

$417.00 per lesson? How much is flying hours and how much briefing? Assume 1 hour flying Aircraft cost $140.00, Instructor 1 hour $50.00, Briefing say 30 minutes and debrief 20 minutes, $40.00, landing/airport fees say $25.00. So the total is now $255.00 plus GST $25.50 & we are up to $280.50. These costs I reckon are generous so the rest is extortion. Our local school charges $200.00/hour including briefings etc in a Jab 160 & I thought that was expensive.

  • Like 3
  • Informative 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hang on, hang on.

The training needs to be relevant to the flying being done, doesn't it?

Those wanting a PPL for someone flying a drifter out of a farm strip need to think about why recreational flying exists and why it is a supposedly "affordable" hobby.

 

I think the current training curriculum is perfectly fine with the minimum standard basically the ability to fly in a CTAF safely.

Further training exists for expanding skills into Navigation/cross country, etc for those wanting that.

It seems sensible to me.

 

It's easy for the (perhaps non-flying) aviation "elitists" to tell other people and pilots how they should spend their money while destroying the financial viability of the average "Joe" wanting to give flying a crack!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I see so many advertise it as 25 hours, I know its possible - but wonder what the true average is

 

 

 

 

I would say it was close to the average at our clubs RAA flying school.

 

I don't know exact figures but back when I trained most of the students achieved it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

$417.00 per lesson? How much is flying hours and how much briefing? Assume 1 hour flying Aircraft cost $140.00, Instructor 1 hour $50.00, Briefing say 30 minutes and debrief 20 minutes, $40.00, landing/airport fees say $25.00. So the total is now $255.00 plus GST $25.50 & we are up to $280.50. These costs I reckon are generous so the rest is extortion. Our local school charges $200.00/hour including briefings etc in a Jab 160 & I thought that was expensive.

In marketing there's something known as the Walmart Principle and it goes something like this:

For every $5.95 product in a Walmart store the gross profit is 3 cents.

Most small businesses would be costing for a gross of $3.00, so assuming they could buy at the same price as Walmart, their sell price would be $8.92, but they can'y buy at that rate so their retail would be around $9.99. and they will all tell you Walmart can't be making any money selling for $5.95.

Walmart explained the principle once - the compounding effect of volume: For every $5.95 product in their stores, because they had so many stores and because the product was so affordable, they made $1 million net profit, so multiply that by the number of products and it made one of the world's greatest marketing juggernauts.

If you want to see this replicated in Australia, just look at the earnings of Kogan.

What people like Bib Stillwell and Arthur Schutt did was apply the Walmart principle, and created a thriving industry. Some people would argue that was because more people were doing CPL training because there were more openings, but apart from the instructors who were racking up hours for their CPL (and the proportion was about 1 per 30 students, I can't remember the club functions being filled with would-be CPLs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's nothing wrong with any of that; my comments were not related to you so much as a convenient spot to put in some points that people can use if they want to lower their costs.

Right now you will be a better pilot than someone who booked a motel near the field for a couple of weeks and got his PC in 25 hours, all in the same weather pattern, at the same field, and most likely on the same runway and pattern.

The most important thing you said, in my opinion, was about the instructor who says he loves flying with you - that says a lot about you as a Pilot.

 

No Worries, I know the way I have done it is horribly inefficient, especially if I was focused on getting a certification.

But the Qualification isn't the reason for me, its just a goal to work towards. That's one of the great things Ive found in aviation is there is always another stepping stone to work towards.

 

I just wanted to go flying and Ive been able to do that, getting the qualification will be a great point of personal pride.

But its not why I took that first lesson. I think that makes a difference with the approach and mentality.

I'm happy to "waste" an hours lesson battling a crosswind, getting frustrated that I'm struggling with basic tasks as its experience. Knowing I'm not progressing through to the next learning exercise while I do it.

I get calls from instructors about current condiotions asking if I still want to fly as we wont be able to perform the planned exercise, and I always take the chance just to get up and feel the effects (within reason)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

In "such" sessions don't continue too long. It's a high load and you will eventually deteriorate. If you do about 5 near the limit, give it away for a while and debrief and come back another time. fresh. Nev

Link to post
Share on other sites

Took a coffee flight a few years ago to a local airfield with a private school. While sipping my latte I watched as the instructor was briefing the student and the engine was clocking up time. OK I thought as a briefing of 5 minutes would also help the warm up.

It kept going for a few more minutes then the instructor got out while the engine was running and walked to the office were I was and had a non aero conversation with one of the staff. About 5 minutes elapsed before he returned to the plane to start the lesson. My mate, an instructor who was with me, commented on the $ racking up for no student benefit.

Shortly after a workmate of mine attended this same school and it cost him $12k to attain his certificate. I almost fell off my chair as I tried to get him to join our club as the average cost was $3.5-4K. The was almost the same cost for a PPL at the time. (2010).

Upon further investigation turned out that he had a different instructor each time with about 30 to 50% review time. After his first solo he had to do a complete BFR equivalent flight, about an hour, before his next and every other solo flight.

He completed his certificate as he never gives up, then gave up the sport, and took up boating instead.

Needless to say, I have not visited that field since the.

Ken

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Being verbally "instructed" while you are flying is poor technique. It should be kept to the absolute minimum necessary. and done before and after the flying bit. The different instructor can be terrible if they all have different foibles and you have to learn what he likes rather than how to fly the thing. It can also be a very positive thing if you GET IT from a new slant/approach to understanding it . The basic facts to ab initio flying are fairly well known. They shouldn't be made a "big deal" of but be well understood in principle with ideally NO confusion. Nev

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

i had not realised that Schutt was using the walmart principle when I did a fair bit of my training with them. I must say that they were the most professional and competent training school that I flew with. Latrobe valley Aero Club were next in my opinion and some others hardly rated at all. When I got involved with Ultralight flying I was appalled at the poor standards of training, except for one CFI working on his own.

I was very lucky not to be paying the ultra high prices that seem to be the going rate nowadays.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...