Light aircraft flips on French Island 21/01/23.

[pmccarthy]

Having been at the scene of an RV9A flip, I can confirm that the canopy had to be smashed from the outside.

[Mike Gearon]

14 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Was landing in the opposite direction possible or not due to slope? As an RV nosewheel operator I am curious if they were able to break the canopy and escape without outside help. 

Tree height/ neighbour fly over considerations  and down slope won’t allow it. I fly in a lot. Max has been a 22kn tail wind and done with the combination of full air brake in Pipistrel and watching the over fence speed (65kn) 
 

They exited through the broken canopy if I recall correctly.  As a member of local fire brigade I was unintentionally first responder on scene. Pilot did a great job pulling the passenger from the aircraft and already had cloth and pressure applied to head wound. 

[Love to fly]

4 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

They exited through the broken canopy if I recall correctly.  As a member of local fire brigade I was unintentionally first responder on scene. Pilot did a great job pulling the passenger from the aircraft and already had cloth and pressure applied to head wound. 

Do you know if the canopy smashed when flipping, or had he managed to break it from the inside?

[Mike Gearon]

Smashed when flipped. It was somewhat caved on passenger side and possibly the cause of head injury. 

[Student Pilot]

On 21/01/2023 at 10:35 PM, kgwilson said:

Nosewheels on most aircraft are a weak point especially in rough landing spots. That's why Bush planes are taildraggers.

Not all 

[kgwilson]

Fletchers & Crescos are not bush planes but they do operate from some pretty rough strips with a ton of super phosphate on board but always land empty. I went for a ride in a Cresco off my neighbours strip In NZ. The approach was under some 110 kVA power lines to a 30deg up slope strip with the loader on the top flat turnaround. I did about 6 runs with the pilot. Each one only took a couple of minutes, takeoff to landing.

[facthunter]

Yes, it's a pretty specialised operation.  Very repetitive and critical flying. It's only logical that specially designed Planes would be available.  Bush planes like the Beaver  were used and highly modified Wirraways. Turbine power has very much improved safety and upped loads. Turning sharply at high rpms on the ground caused crankshaft failures in the C-180.  (Gyroscopic forces).  Nev

[trike1]

As a soon to be RV flyer what size/type of crash axe should I have at hand?

[rgmwa]

Cold chisel : https://www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-3-piece-cold-chisel-set_p5560065

You most likely won't have room to swing anything much bigger and it needs to be fairly heavy. 

Grind to a sharp point if you prefer. Lots of opinions on this.

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, trike1 said:

As a soon to be RV flyer what size/type of crash axe should I have at hand?

Maybe carry some aviation snips (great for cutting lexan) or a saw blade and handle and start cutting from air vent or a cracked section.   Would be the quickest way to make a hole shape that you want.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Blueadventures

[rgmwa]

From the Vans Airforce site:

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

I used to fly the TB10 Tobago and they have gull wing doors. I did wonder if I'd be able to get out in the 1 in 1 million chance I ended up upside down on the ground.

[Mike Gearon]

Here are some nose wheel examples. 

 

Below from a YouTube similar accident to the one the other day and similar result in RV tricycle gear. The point of failure obviously the solid spring steel shaft of I’d say 1” dia. Given a preference I’d rather be stronger here and bending the engine mount and firewall and landing without ploughing the ground. 

2nd image is the RV10A engine mount. Obviously a revision for a reason.

 

3rd is Cirrus SR22. 
 

I don’t really understand the forces involved that you’d think would bend the shaft upward toward the propellor when in fact they bend it toward the ground and then around in a U shape. The pivot may provide the nosewheel shaft more chance to deflect upward and  absorb load and at the end of travel the spring steel can possibly flex in the correct direction to continue absorbing load. 
 

I know an aircraft designer pretty well and I’m going to ask!

 

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

Here are some nose wheel examples. 

 

Below from a YouTube similar accident to the one the other day and similar result in RV tricycle gear. The point of failure obviously the solid spring steel shaft of I’d say 1” dia. Given a preference I’d rather be stronger here and bending the engine mount and firewall and landing without ploughing the ground. 

2nd image is the RV10A engine mount. Obviously a revision for a reason.

 

3rd is Cirrus SR22. 
 

I don’t really understand the forces involved that you’d think would bend the shaft upward toward the propellor when in fact they bend it toward the ground and then around in a U shape. The pivot may provide the nosewheel shaft more chance to deflect upward and  absorb load and at the end of travel the spring steel can possibly flex in the correct direction to continue absorbing load. 
 

I know an aircraft designer pretty well and I’m going to ask!

 

If you round out to a tail-down attitude (rotate this photo to the right), the aircraft lands on the mains, taking any initial bumps or holes without the nose wheel touching. If you pull the stick back fully as it is rolling on the mains, the aircraft has rolled quite a distance, and slowed down quite a bit before the nose wheel touches, and when it does it will be at this angle.

 

At this angle, castor looks good and the strut is laying back enough to bend with extreme bumps with the nose wheel coming up forwards.

 

If you ever, in an effort to force the aircraft on to the ground, lower the nose near the ground, tilt the photo around to the left. When the nose wheel strikes at flying speed it wants to bend the strut backwards, shortening the wheelbase, and that let's the nose slam into the dirt. The forces in this scenario are many times the forces the undercarriage was designed for.

 

You then have this much greater force not simply flexing the strut, but pointing it at the ground. Take a fishing rod, sit one end on a horizontal surface and make it flex very predictably, then put the end against a vertical surface, and push; the result is more violent and less predictable.

 

 

 

[RossK]

This company specialises in RV extras, started with a reinforcement for the nose leg, called Anti Splat Aero ! 😬

Antisplat

[kgwilson]

RV & SR22 chromolly nose legs are quite long and the Nose Job is well engineered and would appear to be effective, especially as if you do bend the nose leg it in theory pushes the nose up rather than in to the ground without it.

 

Mine is far too short for such a system and it doesn't flex much. Still I land on the grass and on some rough strips. There is no secret, just keep the weight of the nose by increasing up elevator progressively from touchdown till walking pace. It took a while to master initially due to the sensitiveness of a full flying elevator (stabilator). What you don't want to happen is for the aircraft to leave the ground again as it can quite easily drop the nose heavily after it stalls again.

[Mike Gearon]

They discontinued the anti splat! 
 

 

 

[rgmwa]

No, there's a Mark 2 Version.

Edited January 24, 2023 by rgmwa

[Thruster88]

On 23/01/2023 at 9:33 PM, trike1 said:

As a soon to be RV flyer what size/type of crash axe should I have at hand?

I have a small cross pein hammer in my 6a. It is held in place by the seat velcro and should be easy to access if required. I have tested it on aircraft plexiglass and it works very well.

 

[Mike Gearon]

1. After watching the video definitely need an escape hammer in low wings. That hammer had a sharp end I think.

 

2. The new anti splat. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

I’ve also included a pic of our Rans S21 nose gear. I’m fairly certain it’s the same USA supplier makes both Vans and Rans shaft when you look at the area that connects  inside engine mount tube.

The Rans has a number of reassuring differences that make it look much more likely to deflect in the correct direction under extreme load. Might still buy an anti splat for it. It’s a clever design. Obviously allows the shaft to flex in normal use and is only loaded if things are going in the splat direction. It’d be interesting to see an example where it was tested in the extreme.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Mike Gearon

[facthunter]

Not a fan of castering nosewheels. Do they ever have shimmying problems?   Nev

[turboplanner]

51 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

1. After watching the video definitely need an escape hammer in low wings. That hammer had a sharp end I think.

 

This one has a harness cutter as well:

 

[SGM]

I flew over French Island yesterday with my daughter... is this the strip?  @Mike Gearon is this yours?

[Mike Gearon]

That’s my strip. Not the one. Just putting in the east west you see. Waiting on the grader to fix both runways.

 

Landed a few weeks back on north south with a 20kn east cross and it wasn’t pretty. The ups and downs kept putting the pipistel back in the air. 

[Yenn]

So the correct way to land is nose wheel aircraft is to keep applying back pressure after touch down to keep the nose wheel off. Whatever happened to applying increasing back pressure to hold the nose wheel off before touch down?