darinm Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 We have a petition going at Change.org, directed at The Hon. Warren Truss, to cancel CASA's Consultation Draft - CD1425SS - Operating limitations for aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines. If you'd like to help, read more of the comments or contribute please click here to sign the petition. WARNING - before you click please be aware what one site user has said "Be aware - if you use change.org you may get pestered with emails about every dammed issue on the planet, I sure did." - Mod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushpilot Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I am certainly not a fan of Jabiru, however I have just submitted an email to Lee Ungermann requesting that experimental aircraft powered by Jabs be exempt from this due to the fact that it conflicts with the experimental regs which are designed to allow those freedoms regardless of what engine. I hope others will do the same and send in an email before the 20th to highlight this issue. I agree, if Jab fix the problems, then this could very well become a massive gain for them. There are already some Jabs out there with factory installed Rotax engines, all 24 and legit (I believe one is based at Caboolture and is available for flight training). ... however the operators report that prop ground clearance is a problem due to gearbox configuration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 My major concern here is that CASA has acted in a way that seems to most as "Waving the Big Stick" approach rather than working with Jabiru & RA-Aus as the statistics began to mount. Why did CASA need to drop the bombshell threat of the "Proposed Instrument" albeit a draft on Thursday and then provide only one week for the consultative process? How do you know that CASA hasn't been speaking with jabiru already about this and they basically ignored them? This way CASA does grab their attention. Everyone has assumed CASA has done this out of the blue....maybe not 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushpilot Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Tried to restrain myself on topic but in the end failed in that resolve... I'm not going to write an essay but here are some of my thoughts and observations: CASA saw a need to do something about the 'problem' because it was put to them by RAA that they needed to do something, as the RAA didn't have the power to do anything in their own right. CASA did something - but they have hit a mosquito with a double-barrel shotgun. Even the RAA Board and executive had no idea that the draft restrictions were going to be this harsh. They were not consulted before CASA went public, even though Ungermann was with the RAA heads and a group of 90 odd CFIs in Dubbo, 3 hours before he released his document. What CASA has done, in the way that they handled the matter, has caused irreparable damage, not just to Jabiru but to the whole RAA sector, by putting doubt in the minds of current student pilots and pilots (and their passengers) that operate their own Jabirus or hire Jabirus, and the generally public - our future members. Sure the proposal is at this point a draft for industry comment, but this slur on our segment of aviation will stick for a long time to come. It will also have a flow-on affect to GA, with a fair percentage of PC holders going on to GA RPL or PPL, or beyond. Despite a willingness to work with CASA and the RAA, Jabiru may not have the financial resources to survive this whole review and remedial exercise. Let's all hope they do... 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Be aware - if you use change.org you may get pestered with emails about every dammed issue on the planet, I sure did. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Be aware - if you use change.org you may get pestered with emails about every dammed issue on the planet, I sure did. That is interesting. I signed the petition on Friday & have not been pestered at all. To date I have received one email update from Darin Mclean the originator of the petition & that is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 If you signed the petition, you will be pestered. Get back to me in a months time if you are not. I find their petitions childish at best. They don't know how to put together a practical proposition and in the case of the jab one they make false statements, such as CASA have show no cause. Dafyd, i hope you don't pull the pin, your posts are always a refreshing sensible way of looking at any problem and of course you have a wealth of experience, few, if any of us could match. As I see it one of the causes of this whole debacle is the constant Jab bashing on this forum. How could CASA ignore it without leaving themselves open to a claim of negligence if there was a fatality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 How do you know that CASA hasn't been speaking with jabiru already about this and they basically ignored them? This way CASA does grab their attention. Everyone has assumed CASA has done this out of the blue....maybe not I don't, but I'd think it highly unlikely that Jabiru would totally ignore CASA. What good would that do them? CASA is just being CASA, the developed worlds most draconian civil aviation body. I still live in hope that things will change but it may be a long road before they get close to the collaborative processes of US FAA, UK CAA, Canada TCCA or NZ CAA to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 It's not bashin if it's true mate. You really think casa are reacting to bashing? Jabs do Half the hours o rotax, and have twice the failures. Let's get passed this " bashing" and get on with fixing the problem. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 . . . why did a company based in a country with wide open spaces design an aircraft with a cockpit only sufficient for bloody midgets ? ? . . . )Phil Not quite, Phil. Years ago I booked a week of lessons in a Gazelle. Having driven the whole family hours from home, I was finally going to learn to fly a powered plane.! I didn't fit. Crestfallen, we drove all the way home in disgust. I later found I could easily fit my 1930mm frame into an early model Jab. The later ones are even larger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I don't, but I'd think it highly unlikely that Jabiru would totally ignore CASA. What good would that do them? CASA is just being CASA, the developed worlds most draconian civil aviation body. I still live in hope that things will change but it may be a long road before they get close to the collaborative processes of US FAA, UK CAA, Canada TCCA or NZ CAA to name a few. Why should they not ignore CASA from even this thread there seems to be a hell of a lot of customers that have been ignored by jabiru. I wouldn't be surprised if they took the same approach.....I know many companies just in the industry I am involved in who ignore the regulatory body....I didn't say it was a good idea but some CEO's think they are above criticism just because they think they know whats best especially when they are big in the market place 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 There is a lot of talk of this being a harsh step by CASA but the more I look at it I can't help but think that it could have been so much worse. As I have said before the main thing is being restricted to single seat unless training or flying with a pilot, the other conditions I can't see how they will affect more than a very few. What I'm trying to say is CASA could have come out and just grounded the whole jab fleet, at least this way the majority are still able to fly. Trying to look at it from an outside perspective seems IMHO that they have gone softly albeit enough to get the attention of all. And to blame the jab bashers and the RAA for this whole saga still amazes me. As has been said we don't know what has been going on behind the scenes leading up to this and we don't have access to all the figures that have been used. Yes we have RAA figures but I haven't seen any GA figures and they are in the same boat. Are GA owners going to blame the RAA? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 When folks make certain claims can they give us an idea of what authority they have to make the claims? As an example, one can only compare CASA to the US, UK, Canada equivalents if they have had intimate dealings with all organisations. By the way, I'm sure these other countries have pilots who hate their 'CASA equivalents' to bits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Let's get passed this " bashing" Wow Merv, it's taken a couple of years but we finally agree on something. In the interests of flying, safety and common sense, ( well maybe two out of the three...) let's see if we can put it into practice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 That is interesting. I signed the petition on Friday & have not been pestered at all. To date I have received one email update from Darin Mclean the originator of the petition & that is it. Give it time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Come on Dafydd we need you,, .........Reset your direction and come back refreshed. Regards KP. Hi Keith , Not sure what you mean by "reset your direction.....". Can you expand please.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Just wonder how many orders or EOI's have been cancelled, couldn't imagine anyone buying a new Jab in the present climate, I have no financial training but I know the most important economic rule whether its a family, a company or a government when money going out exceeds money coming in its not long until you are in strife, ok depends on cash reserves etc, the big question is not when will they fix the engine problem, but how long can they survive without selling a/c whilst paying staff wages etc? The fix will take some time, if I were the CEO I would work overtime getting a Rotax approved for the airframe & hopefully get some cash flow happening with half the staff while the other half try & fix the problem. After all if they fold up nobody wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Why should they not ignore CASA from even this thread there seems to be a hell of a lot of customers that have been ignored by jabiru. I wouldn't be surprised if they took the same approach.....I know many companies just in the industry I am involved in who ignore the regulatory body....I didn't say it was a good idea but some CEO's think they are above criticism just because they think they know whats best especially when they are big in the market place The people I know who have contacted Jabiru have been treated with respect as they should be & I am one of them. If you contact them and go ballistic it is not surprising you will get a frosty response. No organisation is perfect but when you get an ear full of negativity the helpfulness dissipates rapidly. The few who say they have had a poor response from Jabiru on this forum do not represent a very large proportion of the thousand or so Jabiru owners in Australia let alone those who have Jabiru engines in their aircraft. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 The customer is always right. First rule of business. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hi Keith ,Not sure what you mean by "reset your direction.....". Can you expand please.? gandalph. "reset your direction":- you know the times when ones spends so much effort and energy explaining and demonstrating which is the correct direction and instead the people are looking for holes in the explanation instead of interpreting what one is saying. This is when we go for a regroup to think of a way how to explain to the mob so they can clearly understand what one is telling the gang. Normally happen when the mob is putting more effort into finding the holes than interpreting what is said. Hope this explains enough for you. Regards KP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 The customer is always right. First rule of business. That depends on your line of business. Laurie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 & it appears that CASA have now extended an olive branch to Jabiru so as to give them an opportunity to get their house in order, otherwise there will be forthcoming consequences such as the published draft proposal or more drastic action. Hey John (or anyone) is this correct or an assumption? I have no idea but what if the exact opposite situation went down - J suggested they could take U etc to the cleaners and strip personal assets etc? Might be wrong but I feel a public servant or government agency publicly labeling a private companies products in this way without also quoting substantial supportive data / evidence is almost unprecedented except in the case of serious fraud, imminent and serious public danger or criminal misconduct which is clearly not the situation here. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 That depends on your line of business.Laurie True. Particularly the kind that attracts many of your customers to forums..lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 The people I know who have contacted Jabiru have been treated with respect as they should be & I am one of them. If you contact them and go ballistic it is not surprising you will get a frosty response. No organisation is perfect but when you get an ear full of negativity the helpfulness dissipates rapidly. The few who say they have had a poor response from Jabiru on this forum do not represent a very large proportion of the thousand or so Jabiru owners in Australia let alone those who have Jabiru engines in their aircraft. How about the customers who haven't gone ballistic but still got stuffed around by Jab? All they want like everybody else is for the factory help them out in time of need, surely that isn't too much to ask ? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 The customer is always right. First rule of business. Yes right up to the time you don't need them any more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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