octave Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 These are not subsidies at all but legitimate work expense claims which I also use (except for aviation fuel). Fuel excise is for road construction and maintenance, equipment that never uses a public road doesn't have to pay it. These items don't 'cost' the government anything as the government had no cost or claim to that income to start with, they are legitimate expenses to business. If you claim work expenses when you prepare your income tax return you are doing the same. Fuel excise is not the only assistance that the government provides to the mining and energy industries. This article relates only to state government support and does not include federal government support. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/cost-of-state-mining-and-energy-subsidies-revealed-20140623-3aoxr.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The one big subsidy that should be ended immediately - tax free status for religions. The b-----s have grown fat and wealthy and asset-rich while pretending to do good. 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 As Gnu says, fuel excise is levied for the maintenance of roads, an excellent user pays system. Miners, primary producers and aviators, don't use the roads so why should they pay? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Yes, the poor mining industry. I see in the news that mining magnate Peter Wright's grandchildren recently inherited around $1bn after the death of his son Michael. One of them, who was only going to receive $3m tied up in a trust, appealed to the WA court and got it upped to $25 million. The court mentioned that the $22 million increase, compared to the size of the estate, constituted a "rounding error" and would not adversely affect the other children. (The appellant in the case listed, as part of her wants & needs, a $250,000 diamond-encrusted guitar). It's apparent that this industry needs all the help it can get from governments both state and federal. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 An example of the benefits of sustainable energy generation... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-05/australian-first-floating-solar-farm-for-sa/6281374 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 As Gnu says, fuel excise is levied for the maintenance of roads, an excellent user pays system. Miners, primary producers and aviators, don't use the roads so why should they pay? find me a mine in Australia not connected to our road network 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Careful how you go about comparing retail electricity prices - for instance South Aust prices went up after privatisation of electricity assets. It may have not been affected significantly by the later wind turbines. Generally you find that prices go up as soon as a public service gets privatised. Anyway I don't think that wind turbines are likely to have much affect on us, flying little aeroplanes. Most of us don't have low level endorsements so shouldn't be down around windmills anyway. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 These are not subsidies at all but legitimate work expense claims which I also use (except for aviation fuel). Fuel excise is for road construction and maintenance, equipment that never uses a public road doesn't have to pay it. These items don't 'cost' the government anything as the government had no cost or claim to that income to start with, they are legitimate expenses to business. If you claim work expenses when you prepare your income tax return you are doing the same. Tax concessions are not subsidies? Ok, every definition of "Government subsidy" I have managed to look up from every possible source specifically includes tax concessions. In fact tax concessions are an extremely widely accepted form of propping up or assisting (i.e., subsidising) various industries without actually having to hand them cash. The diesel fuel excise is not levied to pay for roads anymore. When fuel taxes were introduced in the early 1900s this was indeed the case, but has not been since at least the 1980s. It is purely revenue related now. The Diesel Fuel Rebate Scheme was specifically targeted in 1982 towards primary producers and the mining industry - the mining industry gaining by far the biggest benefit. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 find me a mine in Australia not connected to our road network And just like the primary producers, the fuel used on the roads has the excise levied. You won't see any of those big dump trucks driving on Government roads though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 And just like the primary producers, the fuel used on the roads has the excise levied. You won't see any of those big dump trucks driving on Government roads though. Are you saying that farmers and miners don't fill up their road vehicles with off-road diesel? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 The point is that the mining industry, as horribly unprofitable as it is and as much as it needs to queue up for Government handouts more than anyone, gets tax breaks worth several billion dollars per year which are not available to "normal" business owners. This is a Government subsidy, and a really big one. End of story. There is simply no way this can be dressed up as anything else. Anyway, much of the negative sentiment towards wind farms is blown way out of proportion, or sometimes just flagrantly misleading, as I have already shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Are you saying that farmers and miners don't fill up their road vehicles with off-road diesel? No, I'm saying if they do they are breaking the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Are you saying that farmers and miners don't fill up their road vehicles with off-road diesel? No they don't. I am involved in both mining and farming and no-one I know would take the risk of doing that and failing an audit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I have just come from a conference where we discussed the parlours state of Australia's mining industry. Unemployment levels far higher than the national average, companies running out of funds, no money for exploration to keep the next generation going. The ratbag anti-miners and green-with-envy dreamers about Gina R have got no sense of what is going on in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Mining is always a boom and bust industry. We are now in the bust phase. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushcaddy105 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 An interesting sideline to wind farms; When the early farms in SA were built (Hallet, Clements Gap, Snowtown are all close to me) they installed red lights on every 3rd or so tower and flashed them in unison. The claim was that the lights were necessary for aviation avoidance. Driving up Highway 1 at night the horizon consisted largely of synchronized flashing red lights, which drove everyone nuts. At night seeding and harvest times the farmers also found that they lost spacial awareness when going round their paddocks. When challenged about the safety aspects, it turned out that the aviation regulators didn't require the lights and they were turned off. More likely the wind farm companies frightened of litigation? Wind farms built since don't have lights, even though the latest Siemens 4MW turbines at Snowtown 2 come pretty close to 500' AGL at the top of their blade arc. (And they are at the top of the range). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If the mining industry is in a parlous state it has only itself to blame. It's had a boom period measured in decades and, as discussed, millions if not billions in state & federal subsidies. You can't run a business on the assumption that prices for your commodity will always rise and the demand will always be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 No they don't. I am involved in both mining and farming and no-one I know would take the risk of doing that and failing an audit. Absolutely right. OK i am surprised at your scepticism regarding us farmers:wink:. But seriously our accountant is very diligent on making sure that we record our on road vehicle Kms and also differentiate between business Kms and personal Kms (if you don't record the difference there is a percentage rate that can be used but I'm not sure what he exact rate is), and if you are found wanting at audit time the ATO plays catchup which is NOT fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Farming and mining are two different beasts. Food production? Have at it. Totally agree with the fuel subsidy for primary industry producing food. Farming by all accounts is not something you go into to make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Farming and mining are two different beasts. Food production? Have at it. Totally agree with the fuel subsidy for primary industry producing food. Farming by all accounts is not something you go into to make money. So you are happy to get food, but not happy to get every other physical object that makes your life worth living - it all comes from mining if it isn't made of wood. I really dont get it - why the attitude about mining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Tax concessions are not subsidies? Do you view your income tax expenses claims as 'government subsidies'? If you do then to you I guess they are. Basically you have your own personal definition. In contrast dutchroll the following groups believe that the Fuel Tax Credit Scheme is NOT a subsidy: The Productivity Commission The Australian Government The Australian Treasury Greenpeace Australia - report agrees that a tax rebate is not a subsidy & all funds go into general revenue. No subsidy see? Only to you. But that's OK as I don't mind subsidizing you a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 No subsidy see? Only to you. But that's OK as I don't mind subsidizing you a little. So are you saying that there are no mining subsidies whatsoever? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_Australia#Subsidies http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2371190/nsw-subsidies-to-mining-870m-over-6-years-poll/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So are you saying that there are no mining subsidies whatsoever?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_Australia#Subsidies http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2371190/nsw-subsidies-to-mining-870m-over-6-years-poll/ The Australia Institute are anti-mining activists run by the Greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 What are these subsidies and what is this clever accounting? Is the latter illegal and if so have you notified the ATO? Or is it instead perfectly legal tax minimisation that all Australian income earning individuals and businesses do (i.e. claim deductions)? It is not about whether it is legal or not... where did that come from? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 BIG Mining companies try to run the others off the patch. They have to be forced to share infrastructure. Recently the big ones upped their output and that lowers prices. IF they couldn't see that coming they couldn't run a pie shop. The other thing is the mess they leave. Heavy metals contamination . Look at Fly river, OK Tedi in PNG and CRA in Rabaul . Lead at Broken hill and Mt ISA. Coal dust all through the Hunter valley and the reaction by farmers to fracking and objection to how they are treated often by companies backed by State governments who are funded by them. Not activists FARMERS. Leaving massive contamination Who else would be allowed to do this. Industrial sites have to clean it up in urban environments. I'm not anti doing anything if it's done properly. Electrified Rail and Port facilities are state subsidised infrastructure. CLEAN water and arable land is getting rare and will be out most valuable commodities in the future of a world where it's population has tripled in the lifetime of people recently.. Quick profits for some don't give the answer where damage is a factor. Nev 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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