Fairoaks Flyer Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 A sad situation. A similar incident occurred about 25 years ago when a pilot of a 172 lost it in a total whiteout off Coffs Harbour. If you are no good on the clocks and lose the horizon over the ocean, you haven't got a chance. Yes, it is safer to go to the pub for a countery - unless you climb and ask for radar assistance. RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hihosland Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Fairoaks did say "unless you climb and ask for radar assistance." A significant factor, I believe, contributing to the human factors involvement in aviation accidents in Australia is a cultural reluctance to ask for assistance. When in the '60s I did my initial training in NZ a strong emphysis was placed on using all the services available:- "when in the slightest doubt use the radio; that's what it is there for" On moving to Australia I found that the pervailing aeroclub bar talk was to keep your head down and shut up else the authorities would slap some penalty upon you. There still remains too much of this attitude in Australia. Something that the designers of human factors programmes should be addressing and something that the authorities should tackle. The pervailing pilots view of CASA Airservices et al is not one of a source of assistance. I know nothing of the circumstances that lead to the tradgedy under discussion and make these comments as a personal observation about local small aircraft aviation in general. 1 12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Sometimes when you've planned to go flying in a small plane you need to look outside and say: "You know what? It's not that important. Why don't we go to the pub and have a countery?" Well said Dutch, Having witnessed a Piper Cherokee with five on board crash 100 metres from me in 92 all killed....not a pretty sight ! Scud running similar conditions to Barwon accident, had to be at the Ouyen Trots by 3pm......ended up in HEAVEN at 1.20 pm. All they had to do was turn back, there was a safe exit behind them. Tried to push through weather (300/400 AGL ) in misty rain, caught in low cloud ....attempted a turn.......end of story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 One of the passengers (92 crash) was Ian Tatterson, CEO of City of Springvale, who owned a trotter. His loss was immeasurable to the City of Springvale and its successor, City of Greater Dandenong. Such an obvious and wasteful loss. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I agree Turbo, Having met some of their wives and small children after the 92 accident it was heart breaking the tragedy left behind from a few bad decisions. As Dutch quoted " go to the pub and have a countery " and live to fly another day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairoaks Flyer Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Back in about 1987 I recall flying in an air race with a leg over a big lake just outside Shepparton. The bad weather came in and I called flight service for confirmation of a topographical feature of the lake. I told them I was in deteriorating weather and looking for Shepparton and they transferred me to another frequency. (No Oz Runways in those days!) The first thing the new Flight service person asked was whether I was alright and was I frightened. I received the utmost help possible and never received any communication or penalty from CASA after the event. I tend to think that this fear of what CASA will do to a person who asks for assistance is a myth. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 That can only be "your " opinion unless you have surveyed a lot of people. People do hate "paper work" or even putting in reports and will go to great lengths to avoid it. The punitive system CASA have where fines are imposed for crimes of strict liability, can't be of any help. No one is suggesting ALL CASA people are ogres. It's not the people . It's the structure, and the culture. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 with forum lambasting of over use of radio and CASA record of prosecuting, I too would be reluctnt to seek help until absolutely necessary Problem is the time between having a small problem and too late isnt very long The CASA culture both real and percieved is a big problem. In this case id suggest its very possible the threat of repercussions for such common and fundamental mistake as flying in crap weather could easily have prevented asking for help sooner. Not saying it would have prevented accident 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Over water low and with restricted visibility you can lose the horizon easily. I don't suggest this as causal, but in a situation as described it's not something easily coped with and you would have little time to react to it, unless mentally prepared. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Knight Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Butch The conditions you described in the '92 accident appear to be similiar with visibility, heights etc. I've just spoken with one of the Police whom attended the scene we were both at at our local bakery this morning and he quickly covered a few points - off the record he said as its a Coroners Inquest. The weather was extremely bad and he spoke at length with two fish men whom were in the area. In fact he said they were also a bit crazy being out there in their boat. I probably should not repeat here what the fisherman said other than to give a brief overview. Seas were slight with a 1m rolling swell. Cloud cover was heavy black with constant heavy rain - their/his words. They were in about 25m of water and looking at returning to the jetty as visibility was down to less than a kilometre and they were loosing site of the Queenscliff and Lonsdale beach. These guys heard the plane and witnessed the accident and motored to the vicinity. The rest of the story and quotes from the fishermen can be seen and read in local papers. In guess in summary the weather was certainly not ideal VFR in my opinion. Additionally, this weather the aftermath of the huge storm that caused widespread damage the day before in Geelong nearby was predicted and emergency services had been on standby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Scud running is a choice some pilots make because they want to get there, they know it is risky but they still do it. It is much like driving through flood water. Human Factors and training will not stop it, some pilots think they are good enough to get away with it. When a guy made a flight in very bad weather some time ago I said I don't know how you can fly around in this stuff. He said he had done a lot of it, I though there lies the problem every time he gets away with it he gets a bit gamer until..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Lesson learned, hopefully all of you with autopilots & sky view EFIS will think twice about flying IMC when not qualified, or ridge running. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Knight Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 At the height they were allegedly at they wold have been close to the Barwon Heads Bluff elevation. Mmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Lesson learned, hopefully all of you with autopilots & sky view EFIS will think twice about flying IMC when not qualified, or ridge running. Not to mention GPS and many try to fly in IMC using GPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Human factors, education is the ONLY thing that can stop it! Jim. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Human factors, education is the ONLY thing that can stop it!Jim. Yeah wishful thinking, it's been going on for years if people cannot learn from that then so be it. Do you really think that those 3 people had no idea that flying in those conditions has killed a lot of people? and that no one had explained that to them? What is that saying? there are no new ways to kill yourself in a aeroplane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Human factors, education is the ONLY thing that can stop it!Jim. Agree but from my personal experiences education can only reduce it. We unfortunately have to accept some tradgic occurances. Cheers Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 How about common sense & a realization that if you take silly risks you will die, its not rocket science, don't fly when the weather is crapy i.e. low cloud & strong winds, even if you can't read a TAF or Metar look out outside & NEVER fly below 500ft agl, even when you are at 500ft study your map for those nasty high tension power lines & radio station antennas, they will ruin your day. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 but you are on the ground. looking at low cloud thinking its 1000 ft its really lower than that when you take off 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 but you are on the ground. looking at low cloud thinking its 1000 ft its really lower than that when you take off So stay below cloud & in the circuit & land, why would you want to fly on a crapy day you described, good day to tinker in the hangar or spin waries at the aero club. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 but you are on the ground. looking at low cloud thinking its 1000 ft its really lower than that when you take off Then you land again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 but you are on the ground. looking at low cloud thinking its 1000 ft its really lower than that when you take off Yep I have done that, turned it into a 500' circuit and then parked her in the hanger. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Benny. what i was saying wouldn't TO into that crap as a VFR pilot. i would be under the cloud in my car! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairoaks Flyer Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Come on, guys! Human factors is not going to stop people flying in bad conditions. Some do it to make themselves look like heroes. Last Oz day a pilot flew from Lismore to South Grafton with an iPhone in his hand tuned into the BOM Radar website. He saw a gap in the rain at Whipporie on his iPhone screen and flew through it. How crazy is that? The cloud base on the coast was down to 200ft AGL, so what would any sane person do? I apply the philosophy of why would I fly in those conditions if I didn't have to? No, I didn't fly. I drove. Human factors is all about common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 One expiation is that crap weather looks a lot better from the air than it does from the ground. You can fly next to a big storm and not think it so big, but then you land and look up and think ...oh that is serious. At least, that has been my experience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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