Crash at Aratula..anyone heard anything yet?

[Kyle Communications]

Anyone heard anything about a light aircraft crash at Aratula?...Ch 7 news did a FB live but I missed it and cant find it

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I just found the video..looks like Otto's Bushcat..I see Phil and Tim at the site and another all ok

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Good he's ok. With that team involved should get an accurate and quick heads up as to the contributing factors. 

 

 

[rankamateur]

With that team involved should get an accurate and quick heads up as to the contributing factors. 

 

Under the cone of silence.

 

 

[red750]

Brisbane Times reports:

 

"A patient in their mid-60s has suffered serious spine and head injuries in a reported light aircraft incident near Aratula in the Scenic Rim. 

 

The rescue helicopter and critical-care paramedics are on scene treating the patient, who is in a serious but stable condition."

 

 

[BackcountryAeropup]

Man a very unfortunate place for a forced landing there is stumps and logs everywhere apart from the odd tree. I hope the bloke is ok. 

 

 

[farri]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/patient-in-serious-condition-after-scenic-rim-plane-crash-20200126-p53ut0.html 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Tim said on FB that Otto is ok but a bit banged up. Planes can be replaced so long as the people are ok is the main thing

 

 

[kgwilson]

Otto was at South Grafton a few weeks ago & stayed for our Christmas Lunch. I hope he's OK. The BT report says serious Spine and head injuries so I hope they are exaggerating as that sounds a lot worse than "a bit banged up".

 

 

[skippydiesel]

From what I am able to see, in the report supplied by Farri , it looks lie the pilot has done a great job in getting his aircraft down, in one piece/largely intact.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

The news report I saw (Ch 9) said the plane flipped. As yet I have no idea what happened. Was it a landing gone wrong or a forced landing?

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Channel 7 had live coverage. You may find info on thier site.  Not being there, only seeing the news chopper coverage there was obvious damage to the rear horizontal stabilizer port side and hard damage to the Stb wing leading edge close to the cockpit. The aircraft was on its wheels. A taildragger. The mains looked it place. There was a tree that the aircraft stopped at and you could see what appeared to be stumps on cut off trees in the area. A distance video showed a lot of clear area and scene was beside where other aircraft were landing. Perhaps a need to land immediately presented and required a modified circuit approach to the lz??? This is not a verified report only interpretation of 7 live coverage.

 

 

[ausadvance]

Hey guys. Yes I was there and I wittnessed this. Be careful what you read on the internet, Im yet to read a single article tgat is vaugley correct.

 

This was not a forced landing. Was simply an accident. Many lessons to be learnt from it but it was not a result of anything major or stupid happening. Was just a good example of a couple of small things lining up to make a bigger thing. Im hoping I will be able to one day talk about this accident, what happened and what can be learnt from it but that will be up to otto to decide if and when.

 

Just stay safe out there people

 

 

[Blueadventures]

10000000_156110199161206_8687985194765918809_n.mp4

 

[NotSoSuperSonic]

Hey guys. Yes I was there and I wittnessed this. Be careful what you read on the internet, Im yet to read a single article tgat is vaugley correct.

 

This was not a forced landing. Was simply an accident. Many lessons to be learnt from it but it was not a result of anything major or stupid happening. Was just a good example of a couple of small things lining up to make a bigger thing. Im hoping I will be able to one day talk about this accident, what happened and what can be learnt from it but that will be up to otto to decide if and when.

 

Just stay safe out there people

 

Hi ausadvance, just wondering if the pilot or anyone else who witnessed this accident/incident, has reported it to RAAus? There’s no record/mention of it in the RAAus accident and defect summaries. Cheers

[kgwilson]

How is Otto progressing from his injuries?

[Hunsta]

Hi ausadvance, just wondering if the pilot or anyone else who witnessed this accident/incident, has reported it to RAAus? There’s no record/mention of it in the RAAus accident and defect summaries. Cheers

Does seem to be there. 9th from the top (barring any other reported incidents)

[JG3]

Seems like a deliberate effort to keep this one quiet......

As I hear it from those who were at the event, it had to do with a "...hey watch this..." attempted STOL landing on a narrow ridge off-field, that went wrong.... There were several witnesses at that event so it would be good to hear more real details so that all of us can learn from it.....

[Hunsta]

Seems like a deliberate effort to keep this one quiet......

As I hear it from those who were at the event, it had to do with a "...hey watch this..." attempted STOL landing on a narrow ridge off-field, that went wrong.... There were several witnesses at that event so it would be good to hear more real details so that all of us can learn from it.....

Having not being there. I personally can not comment on what went wrong. However there does seem to be a huge "Cone of silence" on this one. Compared to what usually happens in this particular forum heading.

I guess as long as the gentleman hurt makes a full recovery. Thats all that matters.

[turboplanner]

Having not being there. I personally can not comment on what went wrong. However there does seem to be a huge "Cone of silence" on this one. Compared to what usually happens in this particular forum heading.

I guess as long as the gentleman hurt makes a full recovery. Thats all that matters.

No, that's not all that matters; if what JG3 said is correct, there is a behavioural issue that needs to be addressed. The next person who tries to prove he can do it may be killed. Who then takes responsibility? Did the proposed landing area meet ALA standards? Has the incident been reported to RAA? What action has RAA taken to avoid a repeat? Who was the responsible person at the site? and so on. These are aircraft, not trail bikes. One of the weak links in self administration of flying by bodies like RAA is that they have to administer and keep the sport safe, so ultimately all members are at risk of their rights if the safety standard drops. Just think back to the last CASA Audit which affected many RAA members, but seems to have been started by a few "incidents".

[ausadvance]

Hi ausadvance, just wondering if the pilot or anyone else who witnessed this accident/incident, has reported it to RAAus? There’s no record/mention of it in the RAAus accident and defect summaries. Cheers

 

Yes mate it was reported to RAA. Representatives of RAA kindly called me while I was still on the ground with genuine concern for his well being. They are very much aware of it and proper protocol has been followed. Keep in mind he was hospital for a week so there may have been some delays.

 

How is Otto progressing from his injuries?

 

His doing well, thanks for asking! His home and very happy to be at that. His got a few months of recovery ahead but at this stage a full recovery is expected. Just always so very impacting on the life of a farmer. Particularly during harvest season!

 

Seems like a deliberate effort to keep this one quiet......

As I hear it from those who were at the event, it had to do with a "...hey watch this..." attempted STOL landing on a narrow ridge off-field, that went wrong.... There were several witnesses at that event so it would be good to hear more real details so that all of us can learn from it.....

 

What a ridiculous thing to say. What cone of silence? The pilot has been out of hospital for barely a week and is just making the most of spending time with his family. His trying to work out how he is going to run his commercial farm while his unable to work. The insurance process is all still underway. The aircraft manufacturer is still to look through the plane to see if there is anything they can take from it, The pilot in fact cant remember anything from just before final to being in hospital, even he and I have not sat down together yet to go through the accident.

 

Odds are high are at some stage it will become public what happened. You are right in saying there is alot people can learn from this, it was a great example of an accident that could happen to just about anyone. However it is not my call to make if it goes public or not. It is up to my mate and the time is simply not right for it to happen yet. I mean when does anyone get a break down of what happened at an accident when someone was airlifted to hospital within 2 weeks of the accident? Its simply no ones place but the pilots to comment on it.

 

As for "what you heard from those who were at the event". Well what you heard was not from people who watched it. What you have heard, IF you actually have heard is from people who arrived after the accident. As for your "watch this" statement, why don't you wait till you do find out what happened before making stupid comments. It was a simple accident at a prepared airstrip that has had numerous aircraft land at it god knows how many times before. There was no "watch this" at all, it would have been one hell of a boring display if it hadn't gone wrong if that was his intention. Chinese whispers never help any situation, nor does making assumptions.

 

No, that's not all that matters; if what JG3 said is correct, there is a behavioural issue that needs to be addressed. The next person who tries to prove he can do it may be killed. Who then takes responsibility? Did the proposed landing area meet ALA standards? Has the incident been reported to RAA? What action has RAA taken to avoid a repeat? Who was the responsible person at the site? and so on. These are aircraft, not trail bikes. One of the weak links in self administration of flying by bodies like RAA is that they have to administer and keep the sport safe, so ultimately all members are at risk of their rights if the safety standard drops. Just think back to the last CASA Audit which affected many RAA members, but seems to have been started by a few "incidents".

 

Well firstly what JG3 has said is far from correct. As stated before, people need to stop spreading rumors and making assumptions. In answer to your questions:

 

No, to put it simply the strip did not meet the standards of an ALA. However at no point is there ever a recreational requirement, in GA or RAA for anywhere an aircraft lands to meet the standards of an ALA. Have you actually read the standards? The ALA standards just about make for an international airport for any STOL/bush plane. The strip where the incident occurred was a prepared strip, it wasn't some wild tight spot. Infact while for many aircraft and pilots it may be considered short, an aircraft like the bush cat which comfortably lands in around 100m can operate on it while easily using less percentage of the strip than say a cirrus or even a lance air at my local airport with a 900m runway. So if its considered fine for those aircraft to operate at that strip, why is it such a bad thing if this aircraft landed on a strip that did not comply to an ALA if it had a far greater margin for error.

 

Yes the incident has been reported to RAA. They were on the phone to me while I was still on the ground.

 

There was one person responsible for anything that happened in that aircraft. Its the pilot. Simple as that.

 

This incident was a simple case of runway loss of control. There were a number of very minor things that contributed to this happening, a perfect example of the swiss cheese model, and hopefully at some stage this may be able to be made public for others to take on board as the accident is a great example of something that could happen to ANYONE. Though runway loss of control is one of the biggest issues both RAA and CASA have to deal with. There is little that can be done to mitigate what happened here, at the end of the day with enough pilots flying enough hours no matter what is done some accidents will still happen, and this is one of those. Before anyone thinks CASA would take a different approach, I have already discussed this incident off my own back with someone in CASA who deals with these sort of things, just to get their thoughts. Again they said the same thing, with all the training and implemented safety measures in the world, some days things are just going to go wrong.

 

These might be aircraft and not trail bikes, but they are aircraft built for a purpose. In the same way aerobatic aircraft are built to be pushed to the edge, these aircraft are built to do a task. And while as I said this incident was not actually at some hardcore off airport location, even if it had been there is nothing wrong with that. It is entire purpose of these aircraft's existence and the reason why alot of people choose fly. I Have always felt far safer flying a bush plane at 20 knots into a small bush strip than any aircraft that lands at 50 - 60 knots flying over tiger country, citys, or even into many airstrips. There were serious extenuating circumstances that made this accident alot worse than it should have been (these are a big part of the reason the incident has not yet been talked about publicly) that would have almost defiantly have resulted in a fatal accident in almost any aircraft that was not a STOL aircraft.

[JG3]

If the hearsay version isn't correct then please tell us the correct version. If the pilot has lost memory then any witnesses need to record their memories (and memory loss is often the result in a traumatic incident especially where there is a head injury). And those memories need to be recorded as soon as possible while they are fresh, and before they become fuzzy and the rough edges polished off.

 

These STOL capable aircraft are very popular these days, and STOL ops are becoming more popular. We all need to learn all that we can from such incidents in order to help avoid such a situation ourselves. It's an unwritten obligation for fliers to share the details of such incidents so they can be hashed over in hangar talk and we all learn and benefit. I've landed many many times off-field on unprepared ground, often at very remote sites. I enjoy the challenges of the judgement and skill required, and the satisfaction of getting it right. I learned many of those judgments and necessary cautions from reviewing the experiences of others, not from formal training.

 

It is a mystery how such serious injuries could result from a loss of control on landing such a sturdy and capable aircraft at 30kts. There's a whole lot more to that story..... We need to know what the extenuating circumstances were so that we can try to avoid them for ourselves in future.

 

These aircraft are very capable for STOL ops, and are a heck of a lot of fun as such.

I long ago named one of my aircraft, my "High Clearance Trail Bike", and I use it as such.....

[ausadvance]

The witness's of the incident have all documented what happened. I personally have multiple pages recorded to the most minor details I could think of. And I fully agree that these things need to be shared. I am a huge advocate for sharing these sorts of things for others to learn from and have run numerous large scale campaigns promoting it on platforms far larger than this forum. I like you learnt my off airport flying skill sets by learning from others experiences and would love to share what happened with the world but as I said you need to just trust me when I say this is not the time, it has only been 2 weeks since the incident. It was my best friend in the accident and I will not be sharing the details without his ok. I have already shared a few factors relating to this accident elsewhere and already I have conformation from suppliers that it has resulted in another 40 pilots now wearing helmets that weren't before, however for the mean time that is as much as I am willing to share.

 

You are correct in saying there is more to the story that made this accident alot worse than it should have been. It is a contributing factor as to why this accident is not ready to be talked about in detail. Information relating to what actually happened there is still being collected and the facts clarified. Please just trust me when I say there is no secrets being kept, no one is covering anything up. There is nothing dodgey or shady going on. It is simply still just very early in the piece and is not yet the time to talk about it on a public forum with no shortage of keyboard warriors.

[turboplanner]

Well firstly what JG3 has said is far from correct. As stated before, people need to stop spreading rumors and making assumptions.

 

....No, to put it simply the strip did not meet the standards of an ALA. However at no point is there ever a recreational requirement, in GA or RAA for anywhere an aircraft lands to meet the standards of an ALA. Have you actually read the standards?

 

 

Rather than continue commenting on the current accident, I'm just going to talk generically about where an ALA fits in to our obligations, whether GA, RA or RA/STOL.

 

ALA – Aeroplane Landing Area, CASA CAAP 92-1(1) July 1992

92_1.pdf

 

Please note, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, it’s just to make everyone aware that they might need to go and see a Public Liability specialist lawyer to get a better understanding of what their legal obligations are when they operate an aircraft or use an area for take-off and landing.

 

CAAP stands for Civil Aviation Advisory Publication

 

At the beginning of the document are these key words:

 

“IMPORTANT

The information in this publication is advisory only. There is no legal requirement to observe the details set out in this publication.”

 

Does that mean you don’t have to take any notice of it?

Well if you talk to CASA about an ALA, you can expect them to have a neutral stance, maybe even limited to pointing out the existence of CAAP 92-1(1). They no longer prescribe a regulation for an ALA; they have stepped away from Public Liability relating to ALAs, so you would not expect a penalty from them if you don’t comply.

 

Who is responsible for the Duty of Care and Public Liability when you use one, build one or own one? You.

 

• In the case of a prescriptive CASA CAR regulation, you might get a fine of $200.00 if there is an accident where you’ve broken the regulation.
  
• In the case of an accident where there was no prescriptive regulation, but you had a duty of care, and breached it you may be paying out $12 million compensation plus a few million in both lawyers’ costs.
  

Industry Benchmarks help to protect you against this, and protect victims as well, and the CAAPs are a series of industry benchmarks where if you are in compliance you may not be found to have breached your duty of care.

 

So the CAAPs are your lifeboat than can save your house and assets, and in some cases criminal charges up to manslaughter.

 

The following extracts are worthwhile noting:

 

“……the aircraft can land at or take-off from the place in safety”

If you crash, you probably didn’t meet this requirement regardless of the scenario you might concoct; swiss cheese is not likely to help you.

 

“…factors that may be used to determine the suitability.”

If you didn’t use those factors you may have breached your duty of care.

 

Runway Length

“equal to of greater than that specified in the aircraft’s flight manual or approved performance charts or Certificate of Airworthiness for the prevailing conditions.”

 

Strip width

“60 metres, day……..actual runway surface 10 metres (below 2000 kg MTOW)”

And there are specified transition slopes, splays, clearances which everyone should read and become familiar with.

 

If you fly a STOL, you will be able to use a shorter length of runway, but the specific dimensions are benchmarks which, if you don’t adhere to, will usually breach your duty of care.

 

The transition angles, splays etc prevent you from landing under trees, in restricted valleys or on ridges.

[Roundsounds]

Rather than continue commenting on the current accident, I'm just going to talk generically about where an ALA fits in to our obligations, whether GA, RA or RA/STOL.

 

ALA – Aeroplane Landing Area, CASA CAAP 92-1(1) July 1992

92_1.pdf

 

Please note, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, it’s just to make everyone aware that they might need to go and see a Public Liability specialist lawyer to get a better understanding of what their legal obligations are when they operate an aircraft or use an area for take-off and landing.

 

CAAP stands for Civil Aviation Advisory Publication

 

At the beginning of the document are these key words:

 

“IMPORTANT

The information in this publication is advisory only. There is no legal requirement to observe the details set out in this publication.”

 

Does that mean you don’t have to take any notice of it?

Well if you talk to CASA about an ALA, you can expect them to have a neutral stance, maybe even limited to pointing out the existence of CAAP 92-1(1). They no longer prescribe a regulation for an ALA; they have stepped away from Public Liability relating to ALAs, so you would not expect a penalty from them if you don’t comply.

 

Who is responsible for the Duty of Care and Public Liability when you use one, build one or own one? You.

 

• In the case of a prescriptive CASA CAR regulation, you might get a fine of $200.00 if there is an accident where you’ve broken the regulation.
  
• In the case of an accident where there was no prescriptive regulation, but you had a duty of care, and breached it you may be paying out $12 million compensation plus a few million in both lawyers’ costs.
  

Industry Benchmarks help to protect you against this, and protect victims as well, and the CAAPs are a series of industry benchmarks where if you are in compliance you may not be found to have breached your duty of care.

 

So the CAAPs are your lifeboat than can save your house and assets, and in some cases criminal charges up to manslaughter.

 

The following extracts are worthwhile noting:

 

“……the aircraft can land at or take-off from the place in safety”

If you crash, you probably didn’t meet this requirement regardless of the scenario you might concoct; swiss cheese is not likely to help you.

 

“…factors that may be used to determine the suitability.”

If you didn’t use those factors you may have breached your duty of care.

 

Runway Length

“equal to of greater than that specified in the aircraft’s flight manual or approved performance charts or Certificate of Airworthiness for the prevailing conditions.”

 

Strip width

“60 metres, day……..actual runway surface 10 metres (below 2000 kg MTOW)”

And there are specified transition slopes, splays, clearances which everyone should read and become familiar with.

 

If you fly a STOL, you will be able to use a shorter length of runway, but the specific dimensions are benchmarks which, if you don’t adhere to, will usually breach your duty of care.

 

The transition angles, splays etc prevent you from landing under trees, in restricted valleys or on ridges.

 

You’ll note CAAP numbers relate directly to a CAR, CASR or CAO. CAAP 92 was developed to provide guidance in satisfying the regulations under CAR 92. I reckon you’d be fighting a battle if you had an incident at an ALA not satisfying the CAAP.