Glider enters cloud

[turboplanner]

40 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said:

This incident was not like that, they seemed to completely ignore or were totally oblivious to the danger staring them in the face. They have no 'excuse'. Clear air and height one way and thick cloud and little height the other way. 

I agree, you could see the cloud ready to suck them in, and the obvious escapes, yet they kept on ignoring warning after warning.

This is quite often the pattern before a powered aircraft hits an unexpected lump of cloud or the rock inside it, which is depicted in ATSB/NTSB reports where there are survivors. Under normal circumstances they would keep the correct distance from cloud, but where there are breaks in the cloud they seem to assume the breaks will continue in an even pattern, and mostly they do. Months or years later they feature in a Report.

[Nobody]

1 hour ago, bushcaddy105 said:

Just checked in to RF and would like to know what happened. Can someone please post a non-judgemental summary of what the video showed?

My recollection from viewing it on a phone. I was going to look at it closely on a PC when i got home but it is now gone.  The below is what I remember but i was looking on a small screen and this was written from memory so it could be wrong....

 

The video was an over the shoulder view from the front seat of a tandem 2 seat glider. They were ridge soaring by the looks of it about 3000 feet AGL above the valley, though that is estimated from my memory. There is considerable cloud build up, about 3/4 or more sky coverage, though the valley looked more clear, and they were above the cloud base and about level with some of the tops the clouds.  Some clouds were also higher.  There was some discussion between the pilots about locations/landmarks and the conditions ahead and about having final glide to somewhere but another few hundred feet being better. They were in ok lift and it increased slightly however they were now above the cloud but only just. Initially they turned to the left, and the lift became sink.  [I think they had been blown down wind behind the ridge. To get back to the lift they needed to turn to the right but that was now into the could].  They turn left and the glider goes into the cloud and all is white, They lose control(possibly spin though not sure) and speed builds (My opinion by the sound) and the white outside view becomes very green with a glimpse of the hill/ground. A fair bit of shouting and then they recover, the camera is knocked to an odd angle and we don't really get a good view for the remainder. In the audio these is panicked talk about their orientation and who has control. Then after a few more seconds there is a call of spin, spin and they have what looks like an incipient spin. The video ends with the glider recovering from the spin, at low level, downwind of the ridge. The ultimate fate is not shown. 

 

Nobody.

[bushcaddy105]

Thank you for the reports

Sounds like luck was on their side in this incident, but we all know that luck is totally unreliable and good airmanship is a better option. (Or should I have said "airpersonship"?

[facthunter]

It's good as a learning tool. Often mistakes like that don't allow a repeat because you are dead. They both had better go get some good knowledge of WEATHER OR give UP the sport. Its BASIC to know where the rocks in a cloud are and  they were using the hill for lift.. You could easily do that exercise in a glider simulator. Leave the clip there . At least something good comes of it that way.  Nev

[KRviator]

Yeah, this'll work.....HHmm, maybe this wasn't such a good idea.....What's that smell?

[Chris SS]

Based on the video and the 3 screenshots, I’m don’t think it was a spin, I think that it was a spiral.  One of the indicators of a spin is a low and stable airspeed - the airspeed in this video is increasing.

 

The clever people say that it is not possible to ‘sense’ level without sight - and that’s what they lost when they entered cloud with no horizon - either actual or artificial.

 

If you haven’t already - read ‘178 seconds to live’.   

[kgwilson]

Here is a good explanation from a gliding instructor (not the one in the subject glider) including parts of the actual video.

 

 

 

[graham brown]

Whoever was in the backseat of that glider did nothing to prevent or avoid what happened. The student quite rightly said “I have it” as nothing useful was coming from the back seat. The student probably will be too scared to fly a glider again and hopefully the enquiry will limit the person in the back. We hear this is what happens when you fly into cloud but this video shows it dramatically. Learning by other people’s mistakes is the best way and I commend whoever posted it.

[IBob]

I think the latter part of this presentation is unfortunate: by telling the story with just a few stills, it does not show how rapidly things went bad, it does not show the ground speed of those near misses, and it does not show the relatively chaotic interactions in the cockpit.

The original clip, which shows all these things is a stunning piece of cautionary footage. 

I think this commentated presentation, while informative and sobering, loses much of that impact.

[Roscoe]

50 minutes ago, IBob said:

I think the latter part of this presentation is unfortunate: by telling the story with just a few stills, it does not show how rapidly things went bad, it does not show the ground speed of those near misses, and it does not show the relatively chaotic interactions in the cockpit.

The original clip, which shows all these things is a stunning piece of cautionary footage. 

I think this commentated presentation, while informative and sobering, loses much of that impact.

I agree, and endorse an earlier post which recommends reading “178 seconds to live”.

 

[Roscoe]

1 minute ago, Roscoe said:

I agree, and endorse an earlier post which recommends reading “178 seconds to live”.

 

Its actually a CASA safety video.

[RFguy]

I think (The CASA video) -  is a over the top dramatic and over produced. 

 

That glider video would be 100x more effective IMO.

 

[skippydiesel]

8 minutes ago, RFguy said:

I think (The CASA video) -  is a over the top dramatic and over produced. 

 

That glider video would be 100x more effective IMO.

 

It is so effective that my second viewing, being that of the slow measured review by the Kiwi glider instructor, to be just as disturbing as the first non commentated one (now withdrawn).

[RFguy]

Unfortunately the 2nd video doesnt have the shock value. The first time you watch the original, and they yell spin spin spin etc and you see the ground come up on the wing, that's memorable... and frightening to watch.  Might contact Teraya and suggest CASA use it the original . Compared ot that  179 seconds to live drama that IMO doesnt really cut it.  glen

Edited November 21, 2020 by RFguy

[IBob]

Here is the original footage:

 

[RFguy]

thanks. I will call up Teraya tomorrow and discuss.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Some powered pilots will see it as not applicable to them. You can't "sense" level  in a cloud in anything. You have to disregard sensory inputs and TRUST the instruments. Watching that glider my brain was saying "where's the GROUND?" That's the first thing you must know when you lose visibility. Keep control and keep away from the ground.  Nev

[kgwilson]

A powered pilot who has flown gliders or hang gliders generally has a far better appreciation and understanding of weather and cloud conditions than someone who is only a powered pilot. The instructor in this video is an exception. Turbulence on a fair weather cumulus day are things to avoid to powered only pilots but things to take advantage of to a powered/glider pilot. Flying in cloud though is just plain stupid unless you are trained, have appropriate instruments and have clearance to do so.

[lee-wave]

Certainly a shocking video to view, but more disturbing is the total inaction of the person in the rear cockpit. Was he a qualified instructor? was this a bona fida training flight or just a jolly with the owner of the aircraft in the back seat.

Up until the camera dislodges, you can see that the front seat driver never uses the rudder pedals...his feet never move  The yaw string fixed point is like an arrow head pointing to the rudder that needs to be pressed.  So he is either not a glider pilot or someone who has never been shown what adverse yaw is.  In either case I am amazed that the person in the back seat (presumably P1) did not take immediate control of the situation and fly the aircraft out of trouble....

 

[Blueadventures]

53 minutes ago, lee-wave said:

Certainly a shocking video to view, but more disturbing is the total inaction of the person in the rear cockpit. Was he a qualified instructor? was this a bona fida training flight or just a jolly with the owner of the aircraft in the back seat.

Up until the camera dislodges, you can see that the front seat driver never uses the rudder pedals...his feet never move  The yaw string fixed point is like an arrow head pointing to the rudder that needs to be pressed.  So he is either not a glider pilot or someone who has never been shown what adverse yaw is.  In either case I am amazed that the person in the back seat (presumably P1) did not take immediate control of the situation and fly the aircraft out of trouble....

 

Agree. The investigation report will be an interesting read.  It is one of the clubs two gliders online the other is an ASK-21.  
 

[Bruce Tuncks]

While I agree with what has been said, I need to state that not all clouds are the same.  There is no comparison between a rock-filled low cloud and a benign cu miles high over flat land.

In Europe, there are many countries which allow cloud flying. One European who came here told us that on a good day, the cu were like inverted bowls and you could get the best climb of the day up  inside the bowl, but then you had to fly through the cloud using the compass to maintain your heading while blind. Well he was faster than those of us who obeyed every regulation.

That CASA vid "178 seconds to live " was accurate for the situation of low cloud over high ground. To transfer the lesson to benign cu at 12,000 ft over flat land is just silly, and it weakens the safety message to try to do this. There is a risk though that the benign cu can turn into cu-nim but this is a whole different set of circumstances.

 

[KRviator]

10 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Agree. The investigation report will be an interesting read.  It is one of the clubs two gliders online the other is an ASK-21.  
 

Makes me wonder if they snagged the glider as U/S for an engineering inspection. They pulled enough G's to lose the camera mount - and I know sometimes it doesn't take much to do that - but the G-meter shows nearly 8G's on the recovery and that looks to be over the redline on the G-meter.

[Kununurra]

Thanks to those who posted both videos they are both great for learning from.

 

If you don't get the message that this was wrong in many ways by watching either of the videos it may be time that you rested in the viewing lounge.

 

The clear message was the glider was in the 

 

Send

Help

In 

Trouble phase of the flight with little or no situational awareness.

 

The guidance of the rear seat passenger leaves a lot to be desired.

 

cheers

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, KRviator said:

Makes me wonder if they snagged the glider as U/S for an engineering inspection. They pulled enough G's to lose the camera mount - and I know sometimes it doesn't take much to do that - but the G-meter shows nearly 8G's on the recovery and that looks to be over the redline on the G-meter.

Good point, KR. Perhaps some form of G-meter should be mandatory, especially on aircraft for hire. I suspect that quite a few hard landings and other incidents are not reported; some may cause enough damage to increase risk for subsequent users.

[Rastus]

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

Good point, KR. Perhaps some form of G-meter should be mandatory, especially on aircraft for hire. I suspect that quite a few hard landings and other incidents are not reported; some may cause enough damage to increase risk for subsequent users.

A G meter is mandatory for gliders in Australia registered in the Aerobatic category.