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And I am thinking of the 95.10 thick wing Sapphire as the test vehicle for electric ... it can accommodate the batteries within the wing and can operate on around 20kw of power (currently has 20.5kw o

This should really be over on Off Topic but it does suit a lot of the posts in this thread. Funny but true.    

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One hour duration,! Not that great Yet.  The model afro's seem to fly forever on their little batteries.

spacesailor

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Also, he doesn't say the duration with 2 batteries which is the default installation. I assume 1 hour is 4 batteries.

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He does say the duration is dependent upon use and circuits will give half the time that normal flight would, so you may be down to 15 minutes of circuits with only 2 batteries. It would probably suit my type of flying, but re charging would have to be solar and that may add even more expense.

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I think that the idea of switching to any form of electric propulsion for transport is only justified, given the state of world political thought, if you either a) prefer an almost silent form of propulsion, b) you wish to economise on the cost of burning hydro-carbon fuel, or c) you cannot conscientiously face adding CO2 to the atmosphere. If "c" then you need to consider the addition of CO2 as a by product of the manufacture of the aircraft and rule out aviation entirely. It is common knowledge that we don't have the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of avoiding average atmospheric temperature increase of less than 2deg C even if , by some miracle (and I don't agree with Scummo in miraculous beliefs), we started to seriously de-carbonise tomorrow.

As discussed widely in other aviation forums, a new form of battery is not within a bull's roar of the present. Simply put, individuals chasing electric power solutions have only a tiny effect on the carbon load in the atmosphere.

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But the early adopters help fund the better technology in the future. It's still early days, cars are starting to see major changes. Aircraft will be slower to change but I'm sure it will happen.

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I think that the case of united world action taken to stop use of chlorinated fluorocarbons in industry about 1980's from memory worked as well as could be expected. An uncoordinated plea to individuals to only support products manufactured with substitutes would have had little effect. We can easily see how "voluntary agreements" by industry to adopt socially worthwhile goals fail with almost 100% certainty.

Climate action is enabled somewhat more effectively in command/control economies such as China but is almost totally ineffective in laissez-faire capitalist ones such as in the west.

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I have been looking for someone to do a electric project with.

 

so far , no takers. Jabiru not very interested, Brumby sort of, trying to find myself a low wing brumby airframe with no engine. 

I am told....Need seems to be for schools to run the plane continuously, so ity needs battery swap out. and that is HARD

but if it was 1 hour on, 1 hour off,  then that is entirely practical.

1 hour , or 6 circuits, then 1 hour to charge is practical.

I;'ve  run all the numbers,, know how to do it... 130kg of batteries is required for 1 hour, next year 120kg, next year 100kg, and so on.

motor and controller 30kg. so for most rotax or jabs you put above 50kg of the 130kg in the front. 

then the balance, 80kg , 40kg in each wing. OK for the Brumby, hard for the jab because of the way their wings are constructed, needs to be done at birth really.

g

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, RFguy said:

I have been looking for someone to do a electric project with.

What would be the "kicker" in this plan? Do you expect to re-coup the cost of development and presumably higher production costs in fuel savings? To simply expect  mass take-up of electric/battery power on feel-good principles is not a sound idea.

Edited by Methusala
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Posted (edited)

 

Yeah, it may not be there yet, but still, ideology aside, the idea of recreational flight with no need of handling nasty fluids sounds heavenly.

Filling up cars is not so bad - or even proper planes of the VH type - since it's mostly done by bowser, so convenient and clean.

But the heavy jerry can shuffle is getting old; even faster than the flyers who still manage to do it.

Edited by Garfly
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there isnt really a kicker, would be a project just to stir up interest. all cost.

 

Wearing an extra few kg in the motor, one can use a far less pricey motor than the super rare earth motor. Cost factor 3:1 !

70kw motor in rare earths, 20kg, maybe $12k, 70kW motor in other , 30kg $4k ...
controller for either  3k-5k.
but use 2 x 35kW motors. - I propose put two motors on the same shaft, duplicate motor and motor controller

This has a good advantage that its easier to get the heat out of a motor half the size.  and redundancy.

 

batteries are cheap now, just heavy.  best lithoum phosphate (very safe) 25kWh/batteries 130kg.  best lithium (dont break them)  35kWh/130kg

about 137$ /kWh for a pack in 2020. 95$ 2024.....  so 25kWh battery = USD3425 (6 circuits, 600kg airplane, rotax 912ULS performance) 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by RFguy
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13 minutes ago, Garfly said:

But the heavy jerry can shuffle is getting old; even faster than the flyers who still manage to do it.

I used a fuel injection pump (second hand Bosch from wreckers) for years. Electrical connection from my ground vehicle via a 10m lead to cigar lighter socket.

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BUT ,!

A Spitfire Will never be the same, without that huge RR motor in front ! 

Who will buy a Silent Harley.

I love the sound, also the Radial motor H A R S, aircraft, when having a flying dispay.

Don,t like 'Big Bore motor ' noise,! Use quality ear protection.

spacesailor

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I am far from being an anthropogenic climate change denier and I have a strong interest in progress towards carbon abatement.  I do however posesss a pretty active BS detector. I see the current interest in EV's as, perhaps, PR window dressing. Look over there...

The public are mostly unaware that cement is the world's greatest single industrial contributor to CO2 production. 8% in fact, but we hear little about plans to de-carbonise cement. Anybody been offered a "carbon offset option" on their unit/home purchase?

 

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The use of electricity as a power source for aircraft it totally dependent on the weight: storage capacity, and the recharge time: storage capacity. I'm sure that world-wide there is a massive amount of time being put into solving the weight: storage capacity conundrum.

 

One point in relation to the motors is their design - inrunner or outrunner. 

 

Brushless Outrunner:  

image.jpeg.93fa3c04c41281a78246c91fba00ebad.jpeg

The brushless outrunner motor has the output shaft, connected to a propeller in this case attached to the case of the motor.  The motor shaft when spun would spins the outer motor case. The permanent magnets on the outrunner are placed on the rotor and the rotor spins on the outside case. On the inside of the motor are the stator windings which do not rotate, they are fixed in position.

 

Brushless Inrunner:

Castle Creations Motor Sensor Inrunner 4-Pole 1410-2400KV 5mm sh - SamiRC

On the inrunner motor, you essentially have the complete opposite. On the outer side of the motor is the case. The case in this situation does not rotate and is fixed. The stator windings are placed on the inside face of the case. When you spin the motor shaft of an inrunner, you are spinning the rotor which also contains the permanent magnets much like the outrunner. The difference of course being that they are now at the centre of the motor.

 

What we want from any motor or engine is Torque. For an aircraft, the torque is applied to the propeller.  The brushless outrunner motor will generate more torque as a general comparison against an inrunner motor. The relationship ties in with the fact that outrunners do have a lower RPM per volt. The relationship with Kv and torque are inversely proportional. As RPM per volt (Kv) increases, torque of the motor decreases.

 

SOURCE: https://www.radiocontrolinfo.com/brushless-inrunner-vs-outrunner-motor/#:~:text=Generally speaking brushless outrunner motors,and typically larger in length.

 

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5 years ago, I drooled all over this......

The Archaeopteryx with electrodrive.........

Now,  IF the electric Aerolite 103 had a more glider performance orientated wing......it would be better.  Not up to the Archaeopteryx standard but definitely an advantage if it could be flyable in thermals to stretch the flight time out.

 

 

 

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On 16/04/2021 at 4:47 PM, spacesailor said:

BUT ,!

A Spitfire Will never be the same, without that huge RR motor in front ! 

Who will buy a Silent Harley.

I love the sound, also the Radial motor H A R S, aircraft, when having a flying dispay.

Don,t like 'Big Bore motor ' noise,! Use quality ear protection.

spacesailor

I would love to build an electric Spitfire.  You could always hang a couple of huge speaker cones in the engine bay and run a soundtrack of a Merlin.

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On 16/04/2021 at 4:47 PM, spacesailor said:

BUT ,!

A Spitfire Will never be the same, without that huge RR motor in front ! 

Who will buy a Silent Harley.

I love the sound, also the Radial motor H A R S, aircraft, when having a flying dispay.

Don,t like 'Big Bore motor ' noise,! Use quality ear protection.

spacesailor

😅

 

You know there are still people who run stream rollers for fun? Doesn't mean everyone has to have a stream roller.

 

Who would buy an electric Harley? I would if it was half the price, or if I win lotto. I've heard it's awesome fun 😎

 

https://www.morganandwacker.com.au/new-bikes/harley-davidson/2020-livewire/?gclid=CjwKCAjwjuqDBhAGEiwAdX2cj_HxSWivTzd9vLE2lJVmEkeHeKW77I38qzUZggEWIXp3ap-Cc2MxCRoCj6kQAvD_BwE

 

 

 

Edited by danny_galaga
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23 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

😅

 

You know there are still people who run stream rollers for fun? Doesn't mean everyone has to have a stream roller.

 

Who would buy an electric Harley? I would if it was half the price, or if I win lotto. I've heard it's awesome fun 😎

 

https://www.morganandwacker.com.au/new-bikes/harley-davidson/2020-livewire/?gclid=CjwKCAjwjuqDBhAGEiwAdX2cj_HxSWivTzd9vLE2lJVmEkeHeKW77I38qzUZggEWIXp3ap-Cc2MxCRoCj6kQAvD_BwE

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

 

Electric is a simple equation; you can have power but not range or range but not power.

Just imagine a patched Harley Rider waving traffic pas him as he does his trip from Brisbane to Bundeberg!

 

You can ride in an electric tram in Melbourne.

Melbourne like Perth, Adelaide and a few other cities had electric buses from early in the 20th century, but they all dumped them by the early 1960s.

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Harley riders carry fast swap spare batteries for mates in trouble, some use for trailers they tow 🙂

 

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135kg in 4 Batteries /4 = 33.75kg ea. Interesting what the voltage and AmpHr is.

I just swapped out a 100AH AGM at 32kgs for a 100AH Lithium 10kgs in my camper and installed a new Battery Management System. (Not making any comparison between my AGM and the aircraft Batteries) theoretically simply weight comparison with Lithium could see 1350AH at 12v. Mass may be an issue.

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51 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 

Electric is a simple equation; you can have power but not range or range but not power.

Just imagine a patched Harley Rider waving traffic pas him as he does his trip from Brisbane to Bundeberg!

 

You can ride in an electric tram in Melbourne.

Melbourne like Perth, Adelaide and a few other cities had electric buses from early in the 20th century, but they all dumped them by the early 1960s.

*Shrugs*

 

Harley make electric bikes. People are buying them. 

 

Electric buses are still popular in Canada and northern Europe. Australia proves itself time and time again they are on the back foot when it comes to technology and infrastructure. Sydney had the biggest tram network in the world until NRMA lobbied the government to rip it all up...

Edited by danny_galaga
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2 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Harley make electric bikes

Harley stopped making decent bikes in 1969. 

 

A 1968 Harley image.jpeg.0fc5aba2e51f86afbab26bd36f172596.jpeg  A 1946 Harley Harley-Davidson 1946 Flathead  A 1946 BSA 500 image.jpeg.7a6379f4f0d4c119e8f61fa4424376ce.jpeg

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