Old Koreelah Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 OK - let's not forget, that the practice of castrating young boys to preserve their peculiar vocal range and delivery, was only finally outlawed in Italy in 1870. Female genital mutilation (for ANY reason, religious or not) is strikingly abhorrent, but we fine Westernised cultural groups have much in our not-all-that distant history about which we ought to be ashamed. How moral was it to castrate young boys simply for listening pleasure? All true, Oscar. The west has much to be ashamed of, but at least we have the mechanism to reform. Does Islam? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 This may help explain the point of view of one muslim. Dear Sonia, I understand you are scared. I am too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 All true, Oscar. The west has much to be ashamed of, but at least we have the mechanism to reform. Does Islam? Even if it did, would you consider it valid? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 America is the most "christian" nation in the world, home to the largest number of christian churches and they are insane. Everyday you see the insanity they have created Video shows moments before North Miami Police shot unarmed man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I don't think that was what the title of the thread was referring to... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 regardless of what normal muslims do, the world's media show no interest in running stories about their lack of interest in waging jihad. No one covered the Muslim anti-Isis march that took place in London last week 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 All true, Oscar. The west has much to be ashamed of, but at least we have the mechanism to reform. Does Islam? OK - I'm not sure that we don't confuse - because I simply don't know enough about the intricacies of the situation - what we generically lump together as 'Islam' or Islamic religion, with different practices and cultural beliefs that are fundamentally tribal rather than founded on the precepts of the various interpretations of the teachings of a particular 'prophet'. And by 'tribal' - I do NOT mean to insinuate that this is peculiar to those who choose to follow the teachings of Mahommed (choose your spelling there!) - we don't have to go very far back at all to look upon the violent schism in Irish society between warring 'tribes', both following (ostensibly) the words of the 'prophet' Jesus Christ. We like to think that Australia is a secular nation and our lives are ruled not by religion but by rationality. Is that really as rock-solid as we would like it to be? I for one will believe that when I, as an individual, have the right to choose to end my life when I decide it has reached its use-by date - and that is a position that is, apparently, shared by a very considerable majority of the population. I cannot think of ANY fundamental right that is more fundamental than my right to that choice - but the views of our 'Christian' religious zealots drives the law. If we truly had the ability to 'reform', the majority will in our notionally democratic population, would enact that reform. One of the 'Ten Commandments' is - I believe - 'Thou Should Not Kill'. But we continue to dispatch soldiers to do just that, to people who pose no immediate threat to us. Our observance of fundamental principles to which we ascribe our higher moral standing than other 'faiths', in the belief that we are being decent, rational, compassionate and moral beings, is in fact modified for base political purposes whenever it suits. If Australia is ever under attack from any forces - be they notionally Islamic, Taoist, Mormon, Confucian, Hindu, Pastafarian, Catholic, Zoroastrian, Protestant, Scientologists, Darleks or Klingons (as a short list), I'll be out there passing and using the ammunition - but not praising god. ANY god. I have to say - that I'm warming to Hanson's idea that we SHOULD have an RC into whether the Islamic faith per se is inimical to the Australian 'way of life' ( which is an entirely confected notion, actually). While the very idea that it would be 'Royal' - which is some sort of nebulous imprimatur to which we as a vast majority do not believe is relevant to our society - it might just have the gravitas in its findings to STFU the idea that 'Islamic faith' is a danger to our societal values. I sincerely believe that there is nothing in fundamental Islamic teachings that presents a danger to our society; let's get it out in the open. There ARE ethnic and cultural values - quite apart from religion - that shape individuals attitudes. In my experience, you'll get a far more explosive reaction from a youth of Middle-Eastern ethnicity by dragging him off at the lights than by your lady friend wearing 'provocative' clothing. I don't believe - but am ready to be corrected by those with better knowledge - that there is anything in the Koran (Quaran - choose your spelling, again) about the religious purity of a WRX vs. an AMG 6.3CSL. But, and this is an extrapolation but I believe has some basis from observation - we have experience of major aircraft crashes resulting from an ethnic disposition against being demonstrated to 'fail' - generically termed 'keeping face'. And that particular characteristic has absolutely no foundation in religious beliefs, it is an ethnic thing. Of course, we 'civilised' people don't do that; we just 'press-on', or make bad judgements from 'get--home-itis', or... pick your explanation. What I would like to see, in regard to immigration, is an approach that says: 'Here is what Australia requires of you to be a welcome member of society. Here are the things we hold dear; if you do not agree to support them, then go elsewhere.'. I would support the deportation of those whose explicit actions do not meet community standards. I would absolutely support the instant deportation of an Imam who states that "scantily-dressed women are plates of meat' - and I would also support the continual incarceration of the 'elders' of the Exclusive Brethren, since we can't (unfortunately) deport them. I would support incarceration of pan-nationalistic zealots of the 'Reclaim Australia' genre, who have an entirely distorted view of how this country evolved with Anglo-Saxon occupation. If we can move beyond religiously generated socio-political positioning to look at all of the people we are now - there are mere fine shavings of differences. Only those on the extreme edges of those differences threaten our society. We have had religious differentiation between communities for practically ever: but the extremely Protestant community of say, Glen Innes and the extremely Catholic community of Toowoomba, don't wage war on one another. Sydney and Melbourne people restrict their intense rivalry to insults and football.. (and go to shop at either where the prices and merchandise are best). I am all for the nullification from from our society of the sociopaths who will attach to their miserable existence any useful tag to justify their whingeing: religion, gender, sexual preference, eating habits, unquestioning advocacy of support for one economic philosophy vs. another. But let's get that into perspective: it's not just those who adhere to the Islamic faith. I personally have more fear of the long-term consequences of failing to address the growth of climate-altering substances than Islamic-faith nutters. If we get to the stage of having inadequate oxygen to sustain our lives, we're going to bloodyt die gasping like stranded fish alongside our supposed worst enemies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Wow Oscar, intolerant much? That reads like the Communist manifesto..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Communist, no; devout disbeliever in and opponent of power over a society being wielded by those who have a vested interest in any religious institution - absolutely. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 regardless of what normal muslims do, the world's media show no interest in running stories about their lack of interest in waging jihad.No one covered the Muslim anti-Isis march that took place in London last week Well, I have to say it's a welcome gesture. Lack of media coverage is very surprising, as most of the media would have loved to been shoving that in everyone's faces. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Most of what is written about the problem of Islam is by Christians or Atheists or even Agnostics. I will accept Islam as a reasonable religion when I hear and see the Muslims discussing the situation. So far I have not heard one word from the Imams condemning the atrocities committed in the name of islam. All I have heard is that the Muslims are afraid that they will all be tarred with the same brush. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Atheists are the worst thing to be, apparently requiring that you be killed, if you state you are one. They really feel threatened by atheists. I have told it before, I'll tell it again for those who missed it. Here in Chengdu (China) for many years I bought lamb on skewers BBQ'ed over a concrete kiln with fresh round flat bread hot out of the same kiln, throw the meat in off the skewers and into the bread for one fantastic meal on the go. The guy and the kiln were outside of their restaurant shop on a street cnr. I went once or twice per week and built up a typical regular buyer/seller friendship with the Muslim guy over a number of years until the day he asked me if I was a Christian - when I told him I had nothing his faced dropped and a look that could kill, literally. He refused to serve me, never spoke to me again and gave me dirty glances whenever I walked past. Some Muslims might have some acceptance of Christians, they do not accept others at all. But then again the Quran recognises the Bible but the Bible says all other is false, and since the Bible is the truth, that makes the Quran false and all it's contents, which makes the Bible false. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 who have an entirely distorted view of how this country evolved with Anglo-Saxon occupation. I don't actually care who shaped Australia, be it Italians, Greeks (both who we indeed have a lot thank for but I digress), Asians or Muslims. What I know is I did have freedoms of speech and opinions during the 60, 70 and 80's that have not only been eroded to zero, but gone into negatives - if I dare say about the woman in the full black burqa at a beach in Brissy last year on a 30 degree day when her husband and kids are in togs is "disgusting", and that I don't want to see that oppression of women in this country, I will immediately get called a racist by someone. I have a right to hate whatever I choose to and a right to express that opinion when it is real and verifiable. Lefty A'holes have taken away those rights and then are amazed at why the Hansons, the Trumps and the Brexit's happen. Pauline Hanson rightfully or wrongfully has been shredded and carried over the coals for 2 decades, possibly no one in Australian history has had more vile and ignorant lies written about them so consistently and yet here she is staring at a possible 7 Senate Seats. Get a clue, there are reasons why and if Lefties keep taking the sanctimonious high road and can't hold a real conversation on subject matter, it's only going to get worse until the day, such as Brexit has proven with the German Right Wings almost there, you are the minority - for which you hypocritically and verifiably can't tolerate. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I have a right to hate whatever I choose to and a right to express that opinion when it is real and verifiable. Lefty A'holes have taken away those rights and then are amazed at why the Hansons, the Trumps and the Brexit's happen. In what way has it been taken away Hansen has the right to say what she is saying BUT criticizing her is not curtailing her freedom of speech. I am perfectly happy for Hansen to articulate her views but it is ridiculous to complain when people challenge her. Since we don't need to be PC anymore, just let me say that I think Hanson is not articulate or intelligent. I also think that many of her supporters are people who are frustrated about how their lives are going and need someone to blame, if only those Asians weren't buying houses maybe I could buy one. I am sure Mark you wont agree but I am also confident that you would passiontley defend my right to express my opinion free of right wing or left wing political correctness. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 All this talk about religion, and no-one has mentioned the Pastafarians. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 So far I have not heard one word from the Imams condemning the atrocities committed in the name of islam. Muslim leaders including the Grand Mufti of Australia back fatwa against Islamic State - Board of Imams Victoria Muslims Around The World Condemn Charlie Hebdo Attack Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks I think they probably do but noone is listening. I do understand the the psychology of this because I feel it myself, an atrocity is committed, we can't express our justifiable anger to ISIS because they are not listening so we look for the next best person to blame. I can see that leaders in the Islamic community have more responsibility in their public statements but I know my friend Azedeh who (as far as I know is not a practising Muslim ) feels pressure to constantly apologize. I wonder if as males we should apologise for the huge number of domestic violence incidents and murders of women by their male partners, do we speak out enough about what our male brothers do? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I am perfectly happy for Hansen to articulate her views but it is ridiculous to complain when people challenge her. I would certainly hope people would challenge her, how can you have a discussion otherwise and understand where the foundation of her platform coming from and how to resolve it. But telling her to pee off, calling her a racist, bigot, whatever, on any and every word she says, selecting and distorting parts of speeches out of context, etc is NOT a discussion, it is abuse, and I don't care what idiocy that person thinks she is sprouting, this isn't some drunk guy at the pub, she is an elected figure by a shockingly large percentage and therefore has the right to be heard and considered. I believe that is the Australian way to do it - then tell her to pee off. if only those Asians weren't buying houses maybe I could buy one. Ha! I did mention that many were bidding from overseas sight unseen and denying Australian Asians, Australian Muslims, Australian Gays and those bloody racist Whiteys from what might be seen as a fair market price. You are suffering from it still to this day. Since we don't need to be PC anymore, just let me say that I think Hanson is not articulate or intelligent. . No she's not, which makes it easier to understand her position for many. I'm not a big fan of twisted, avoidance answers by groomed experienced Politicians, are you? Ever heard Bob Hawke answer a question without the prefix of "Well let me first say this ....". I am sure Mark you wont agree but I am also confident that you would passiontley defend my right to express my opinion free of right wing or left wing political correctness. As long as you agree with me, not a problem. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 shockingly large percentag 4.1% But telling her to pee off, calling her a racist, bigot, whatever Yep I agree with you, it is much easier to just challenge her on grounds of rationality and facts. Personally from my point of view, the more she is out there expressing her opinion, the better. No she's not, which makes it easier to understand her position for many. It doesn't make it easier for ME to understand. If I go to a doctor or a flying instructor I want them to be intelligent and qualified. Ha! I did mention that many were bidding from overseas sight unseen and denying Australian Asians, Australian Muslims, Australian Gays and those bloody racist Whiteys from what might be seen as a fair market price. I don't necessarily have a problem with having restrictions around people from overseas buying property in Aus (but I haven't put in the research to come up with a RATIONAL view) but this is not what Hansen said. She said 'Look at your housing, every time you go to an auction in Melbourne it's lined up full of Asians and Australians can't even get foot in the door to buy houses in their own country,'There's no identification,' she said. No identification...... what does that even mean??? Now perhaps you are right and she is not referring to overseas Asian buyers, but she did not make that clear. and I am not sure if her supporters are drawing that distinction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 No identification...... what does that even mean??? Identify if they are Australian residents or overseas investment purchasers. The housing costs in Australia is a very terrible situation for many that I am directly affected by, I have no answers for it but that doesn't mean I can't be angry about it. I think not being able to loan against your home, as well as requiring a 30% deposit like the do in China is great and keeps prices down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 All this talk about religion, and no-one has mentioned the Pastafarians. Thanks Willedoo; I've heard of that great religious movement but hadn't taken much notice. Just googled it. The Pastafarian message deserves a wider audience. If God exists I'm sure it has a sense of proportion and won't be offended. A core Aussie value is that we don't take anything too seriously (besides sport) so I don't blame anyone for losing interest in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Identify if they are Australian residents or overseas investment purchasers. Yes understand that and I am not sure what I think about foreign purchases, I am not sure whether I see this a s a problem or not, bad for Australian buyers but I suppose great for Australian sellers. She does say - lined up full of Asians specifically Asians. Not Germans, Americans, Canadians etc. but I suppose these people don't look disturbingly different!By the way I would be the first to admit that I am not particularly knowledgeable about the housing market but I am not necessarily convinced about the narrative that housing is unaffordable because of .... Asians. By the way The great Australian property myth she is an elected figure by a shockingly large percentage One Nation 566,989 votes (4.3%) The Greens 1,121,804 vote (8.4%) just saying! Oh, just doing a bit of research, haven't quite digested all the info here, but it looks like foreigners do have to get permission to buy a residential property "Note that foreign investors intending to buy real estate in Australia have relatively open access to the Australian market and mortgage finance, with mortgages up to 70% of the property value typically available, but they must seek prior approval from the Government through the Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) unless specifically exempted by the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Regulations." The Purchase of Australian Property by Foreign Residents | Exfin - The Australian Expatriate's Gateway The fact that according to the above, foreigners must seek prior approval from the Foreign Investment Board would suggest to me that they indeed are identified. If this is correct then I would suggest that Hanson is either woefully uninformed or is trying to incite fear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 OK - I'm not sure that we don't confuse - because I simply don't know enough about the intricacies of the situation - what we generically lump together as 'Islam' or Islamic religion, with different practices and cultural beliefs that are fundamentally tribal rather than founded on the precepts of the various interpretations of the teachings of a particular 'prophet'. And by 'tribal' - I do NOT mean to insinuate that this is peculiar to those who choose to follow the teachings of Mahommed (choose your spelling there!) - we don't have to go very far back at all to look upon the violent schism in Irish society between warring 'tribes', both following (ostensibly) the words of the 'prophet' Jesus Christ.We like to think that Australia is a secular nation and our lives are ruled not by religion but by rationality. Is that really as rock-solid as we would like it to be? I for one will believe that when I, as an individual, have the right to choose to end my life when I decide it has reached its use-by date - and that is a position that is, apparently, shared by a very considerable majority of the population. I cannot think of ANY fundamental right that is more fundamental than my right to that choice - but the views of our 'Christian' religious zealots drives the law. If we truly had the ability to 'reform', the majority will in our notionally democratic population, would enact that reform. One of the 'Ten Commandments' is - I believe - 'Thou Should Not Kill'. But we continue to dispatch soldiers to do just that, to people who pose no immediate threat to us. Our observance of fundamental principles to which we ascribe our higher moral standing than other 'faiths', in the belief that we are being decent, rational, compassionate and moral beings, is in fact modified for base political purposes whenever it suits. If Australia is ever under attack from any forces - be they notionally Islamic, Taoist, Mormon, Confucian, Hindu, Pastafarian, Catholic, Zoroastrian, Protestant, Scientologists, Darleks or Klingons (as a short list), I'll be out there passing and using the ammunition - but not praising god. ANY god. I have to say - that I'm warming to Hanson's idea that we SHOULD have an RC into whether the Islamic faith per se is inimical to the Australian 'way of life' ( which is an entirely confected notion, actually). While the very idea that it would be 'Royal' - which is some sort of nebulous imprimatur to which we as a vast majority do not believe is relevant to our society - it might just have the gravitas in its findings to STFU the idea that 'Islamic faith' is a danger to our societal values. I sincerely believe that there is nothing in fundamental Islamic teachings that presents a danger to our society; let's get it out in the open. There ARE ethnic and cultural values - quite apart from religion - that shape individuals attitudes. In my experience, you'll get a far more explosive reaction from a youth of Middle-Eastern ethnicity by dragging him off at the lights than by your lady friend wearing 'provocative' clothing. I don't believe - but am ready to be corrected by those with better knowledge - that there is anything in the Koran (Quaran - choose your spelling, again) about the religious purity of a WRX vs. an AMG 6.3CSL. But, and this is an extrapolation but I believe has some basis from observation - we have experience of major aircraft crashes resulting from an ethnic disposition against being demonstrated to 'fail' - generically termed 'keeping face'. And that particular characteristic has absolutely no foundation in religious beliefs, it is an ethnic thing. Of course, we 'civilised' people don't do that; we just 'press-on', or make bad judgements from 'get--home-itis', or... pick your explanation. What I would like to see, in regard to immigration, is an approach that says: 'Here is what Australia requires of you to be a welcome member of society. Here are the things we hold dear; if you do not agree to support them, then go elsewhere.'. I would support the deportation of those whose explicit actions do not meet community standards. I would absolutely support the instant deportation of an Imam who states that "scantily-dressed women are plates of meat' - and I would also support the continual incarceration of the 'elders' of the Exclusive Brethren, since we can't (unfortunately) deport them. I would support incarceration of pan-nationalistic zealots of the 'Reclaim Australia' genre, who have an entirely distorted view of how this country evolved with Anglo-Saxon occupation. If we can move beyond religiously generated socio-political positioning to look at all of the people we are now - there are mere fine shavings of differences. Only those on the extreme edges of those differences threaten our society. We have had religious differentiation between communities for practically ever: but the extremely Protestant community of say, Glen Innes and the extremely Catholic community of Toowoomba, don't wage war on one another. Sydney and Melbourne people restrict their intense rivalry to insults and football.. (and go to shop at either where the prices and merchandise are best). I am all for the nullification from from our society of the sociopaths who will attach to their miserable existence any useful tag to justify their whingeing: religion, gender, sexual preference, eating habits, unquestioning advocacy of support for one economic philosophy vs. another. But let's get that into perspective: it's not just those who adhere to the Islamic faith. I personally have more fear of the long-term consequences of failing to address the growth of climate-altering substances than Islamic-faith nutters. If we get to the stage of having inadequate oxygen to sustain our lives, we're going to bloodyt die gasping like stranded fish alongside our supposed worst enemies. I agree with most of this, Oscar, except the central bit: "I sincerely believe that there is nothing in fundamental Islamic teachings that presents a danger to our society; let's get it out in the open." That's seems to be the crux of our differences. Many who have studied the Koran find explicit instructions to advance the spread of Islam- using whatever means, including deceit, lies and violence. I'd like to know if this is true. A proper inquiry might tell us. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 website Thanks Willedoo; I've heard of that great religious movement but hadn't taken much notice. Just googled it. The Pastafarian message deserves a wider audience. If God exists I'm sure it has a sense of proportion and won't be offended. A core Aussie value is that we don't take anything too seriously (besides sport) so I don't blame anyone for losing interest in this thread. I don't take sport seriously at all (except Hockey, handball and Hurling - it has to 'ave an aich - 'orse racing is just a commercial ripoff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Yes understand that and I am not sure what I think about foreign purchases, I am not sure whether I see this a s a problem or not, bad for Australian buyers but I suppose great for Australian sellers. She does say -specifically Asians. Not Germans, Americans, Canadians etc. but I suppose these people don't look disturbingly different! By the way I would be the first to admit that I am not particularly knowledgeable about the housing market but I am not necessarily convinced about the narrative that housing is unaffordable because of .... Asians. By the way The great Australian property myth One Nation 566,989 votes (4.3%) The Greens 1,121,804 vote (8.4%) just saying! Oh, just doing a bit of research, haven't quite digested all the info here, but it looks like foreigners do have to get permission to buy a residential property "Note that foreign investors intending to buy real estate in Australia have relatively open access to the Australian market and mortgage finance, with mortgages up to 70% of the property value typically available, but they must seek prior approval from the Government through the Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) unless specifically exempted by the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Regulations." The Purchase of Australian Property by Foreign Residents | Exfin - The Australian Expatriate's Gateway The fact that according to the above, foreigners must seek prior approval from the Foreign Investment Board would suggest to me that they indeed are identified. If this is correct then I would suggest that Hanson is either woefully uninformed or is trying to incite fear. The rules are designed to be driven through. No-one seems to be actively monitoring or enforcing the rules on foreign ownership. Nor things like lazy rule setting and cynical water acquisition such as at Cubby Station. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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