ASIC Rip off pilots

[cscotthendry]

CASA and the government ... They have made statements that they will not allow our airport security to be cut back etc etc making it sound as though ASICs are contributing to safer skies.

Easier votes from an electorate who doesn't know what an ASIC card is and who it is who has to have one etc. and at what cost and certainly who doesn't know how little they contribute to anything.

BINGO!

ASIC is a politically driven "security measure". It is more about being seen to be doing something, than actually doing something about security. This is the state of politics these days, it is more about appearances than substance.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I am sure a psychologist/psychiatrist would have a field day analysing our collective responses to this vexatious subject.

 

I find it extraordinary that we;

 

• Are all against ASIC, as it currently applies to pilots who never fly into any of or major airports (in any discussion on this matter, I have yet to hear an aviation voice that supports ASIC )
   
   
  
• DO absolutly NOTHING
   
   
  

 

 

At the risk of being totaly boring, I return to my original advice/position - "DO NOT BUY IN TO ASIC" . It really doesn't take much courage and if the overwhelming majority fly without an ASIC what can the authorities do about it (may be a postal survey will be commissioned?)

 

• The lack of revenue (& deafening silence) alone, may just cause the authorities to review the situation.
   
   
  
• Should the passive resistance fail to get matters changed, more direct action may be required eg a coordinated unofficial mass fly in's to an RPT airfield near you (as an added inducement and a bit of extra fun - could probably get a ground crew to turn up with a BBQ).
   
   
  

 

 

 

One of the great things about social media is its ability to organise/coordinate widely dispersed groups/individuals - not much that the authorities can do about this.

 

.

 

 

[Yenn]

Skippy. Are you going to activate the social media to campaign against the ASIC?

 

Good luck with it, but I doubt that social media will help. They will all probably think that anyone who flies was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

 

I have tried getting my local MHR to do something, but all I get in reply is a letter from the minister, which more or less says get used to it.

 

 

[waraton]

Go one step further and look at the AVID. According to the CASA explanation, in order to pilot an aircraft, as a minimum, all pilots must either have an AVID or have applied for one, irrespective of what, where or how often you fly. I've never seen anyone with an AVID which costs less than an ASIC and current for 5 years as opposed to 2. Do you know anyone who has an AVID?

 

Surely CASA must see the id system is underutilized and either think there are a lot of people doing the wrong thing or just couldn't care less because they also understand it serves no real purpose in the majority of cases.

 

 

[Pearo]

I just got an email saying my ASIC is coming up for renewal. Had no idea, thats how often I actually remove it from my flight bag. Pretty sure the last time I used it was mid this year at Longreach. Mind you, I do normally use it at Sunny Coast and Ballina as well, just haven't had a chance to drop in there the last 6 months.

 

Fortunately, I had to apply for another government clearance this year (stricter than ASIC) and I still have all my documents in a folder on my desk at home, so finding the birth certificate wont be hard this time! At least I don't have to get fingerprinted for an ASIC ... yet.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Skippy, while it might look like people are doing nothing, you are not entirely correct about the do nothing - AOPA is doing stuff, SAAA is doing stuff, the membership does stuff to drive the admin of these organisations to do their stuff. there is a lot of social media groups about it, there's a Facebook page called something like "pilots against asic " there have been at least one widely publicised project which asked for submissions to CASA about them ( which I submitted to) which had a few hundred submissions as I recall. It was also part of that report about how CASA is stuffing up aviation ( I think that was the Forster report" )

 

There's heaps being done about it. But the trouble is there is no inclination from the government to change it because it forms part of the governments publicity about the war on terror ( even though it has nothing to do with it) and it it is yet another mechanism of CASA to control pilots.

 

When it comes to what else we could do - well sadly flying without an ASIC is not an option for some and not worth the risk to others. The risk is that if you do get some local little Hilter decides to make an example of you then you make end up with a conviction that not only would stop your flying days it may lose you your job and everything else you hold dear.

 

So on balance for many of us as difficult or annoying as it is - it's easier to get one. In fact not having one may realistically not even be an option.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Skippy. Are you going to activate the social media to campaign against the ASIC?Good luck with it, but I doubt that social media will help. They will all probably think that anyone who flies was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

I have tried getting my local MHR to do something, but all I get in reply is a letter from the minister, which more or less says get used to it.

The social media, in this context, is this and other similar aviation forums - not the general public who dont understand anything about aviation other than what the popular media presents which is generally allarmist & negative.

 

 

[djpacro]

Do you know anyone who has an AVID?

I had an AVID for quite a few years operating out of Moorabbin as it had approval from the govt dept to only require ASICs for entry into certain areas on the airport - they lost that exemption some years ago.My regular trips to Qld in the Pitts (220 nm range) had to avoid many airports, I diverted to one of those in unfavourable weather and quickly refuelled etc then got going.

I had a long discussion with Essendon Airport management about that note regarding "frequent use" Applicants and cardholders

 

Even if I flew in, and departed without stopping the engine (a typical training flight), I was airside so needed an ASIC. I was crew (instructor) so needed an ASIC - pilots with an ASIC can only escort a passenger. I asked about their visitor cards per Applying for an ASIC or an MSIC They only gave them to people who drove in, but even if I drove in prior to the flight they wouldn't give me one because they don't allow them to be taken away from the airport.

 

We had an aerobatic contest at a security controlled airport in country NSW owned by the local council - all good as we were given visitor cards and had to be escorted by someone with an ASIC - worked well until the last day - we had to return the cards to the council office before we departed. But then we can't get to the aeroplane to depart as crew being escorted require a visitor card.

 

All a farce as others have said. Have fun!

 

 

[Downunder]

In the process myself at the moment. Security ID charging $223 but you need to find a "authorising agent".If you know a club or someone who can do this, great, but auspost charge $44 if you can't...

Ok, so just been the PO and had my docs checked. Now $44 poorer.

 

Procedure was, apply to security id and scan and upload docs. Pay security id upon submission.

 

They check it then send email with a scan box thing.

 

Take mobile device with email to PO, they then scan that and check, photo copy docs.

 

All done. Wait for asic to arrive.

 

So many airport are now "security" airports. I went to one recently which had on the GA gate "no asic, no entry".(about 1000m from the rpt terminal)

 

No doubt from the council/owner. I'm unsure how enforcable this is. They do own the airport and see themselves as having the right to determine security requirements.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Skippy, while it might look like people are doing nothing, you are not entirely correct about the do nothing - AOPA is doing stuff, SAAA is doing stuff, the membership does stuff to drive the admin of these organisations to do their stuff. there is a lot of social media groups about it, there's a Facebook page called something like "pilots against asic " there have been at least one widely publicised project which asked for submissions to CASA about them ( which I submitted to) which had a few hundred submissions as I recall. It was also part of that report about how CASA is stuffing up aviation ( I think that was the Forster report" )There's heaps being done about it. But the trouble is there is no inclination from the government to change it because it forms part of the governments publicity about the war on terror ( even though it has nothing to do with it) and it it is yet another mechanism of CASA to control pilots.

 

When it comes to what else we could do - well sadly flying without an ASIC is not an option for some and not worth the risk to others. The risk is that if you do get some local little Hilter decides to make an example of you then you make end up with a conviction that not only would stop your flying days it may lose you your job and everything else you hold dear.

 

So on balance for many of us as difficult or annoying as it is - it's easier to get one. In fact not having one may realistically not even be an option.

Well Jaba-who -

 

On the matter of our representative bodies doing something - How long has ASIC been "in" now? 16+ years or so? Given that most of us enthusiastically applied for the ASIC and it took about 5 years to work out it wasn't worth a pinch of pigeon poo. That leaves 10 -11 years of devastatingly effective action by our representative bodies. Can anyone actually show positive progress in this area ?

 

As for the rest of your comments - I leave it to Edmund Burke to capture what I think :

 

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”

 

From my perspective, when the State gets it wrong, this is just a mistake. When the State refuses to right the wrong, this is evil. Evil because it is the deliberate refusal by the Government to right a demonstrable wrong, visited upon a minority (us pilots), without any benefit to the majority.

 

Jaba - I am sorry that you feel so disempowered.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Well Jaba-who -On the matter of our representative bodies doing something - How long has ASIC been "in" now? 16+ years or so? Given that most of us enthusiastically applied for the ASIC and it took about 5 years to work out it wasn't worth a pinch of pigeon poo. That leaves 10 -11 years of devastatingly effective action by our representative bodies. Can anyone actually show positive progress in this area ?

 

As for the rest of your comments - I leave it to Edmund Burke to capture what I think :

 

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”

 

From my perspective, when the State gets it wrong, this is just a mistake. When the State refuses to right the wrong, this is evil. Evil because it is the deliberate refusal by the Government to right a demonstrable wrong, visited upon a minority (us pilots), without any benefit to the majority.

 

Jaba - I am sorry that you feel so disempowered.

This has become a cyclic argument.

 

You have said multiple times we should be doing something.

 

Multiple replies have said:

 

We are.

 

We have.

 

Our representative groups have.

 

A major industry review and report has.

 

In response the party with the sole authority and rule to change it has said “No” and if you as pilots do anything we have said is unlawful you will suffer.

 

If you have any other ideas to effect change where all others have failed please do it.

 

Time to stop this particular back and forth on this thread I think.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

This has become a cyclic argument.You have said multiple times we should be doing something.

Multiple replies have said:

 

We are.

 

We have.

 

Our representative groups have.

 

A major industry review and report has.

 

In response the party with the sole authority and rule to change it has said “No” and if you as pilots do anything we have said is unlawful you will suffer.

 

If you have any other ideas to effect change where all others have failed please do it.

 

Time to stop this particular back and forth on this thread I think.

I dont accept "cyclic" however it is clear I am "pissing into the wind" on this one -

 

I have made my suggestions passive resistance followed up (only if need be) with active resistance. But nooooo you would rather whinge & whine - not even the Poms are so accepting of the State's authority. When where Australians relieved of their "cojones".

 

Sorry to be so dogmatic but this statement is just so wrong "....the party with the sole authority and rule to change it has said “No” ...." this canonly true when you give up your right to a voice, freedom of choice and the ability to write wrong. (Stalin would love you)

 

It strikes me that those that just want to roll over and accept the status quo, dont seem to understand that the POWER IS ALWAYS WITH THE PEOPLE,as long as the people act with a UNITED FRONT. Act together and the State must acquiesce. Waver and they have you by the short and curlies.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Well the recent migrant cultures frequently tend to get their way by going nuts and breaking things, government apparently only responds to goat herding third world activism. Technique now adopted by 'antifa' but with limited success as they lack the culture.

 

 

[coljones]

Well the recent migrant cultures frequently tend to get their way by going nuts and breaking things, government apparently only responds to goat herding third world activism. Technique now adopted by 'antifa' but with limited success as they lack the culture.

Oh, I don't know but the NSW Corps, Macarthur and cronies would have left some of the bad boys in their wake.

 

 

[petercoota]

Yes, I was shocked to discover that now we need to produce a birth certificate as well as all the other stuff!After turning the house upside down I finally found mine. And to simplify and speed up the process I decided to drive down to Merimbula to get the formalities out of the way as soon as possible. Typical excessive (and ineffective) bullying from the security/industrial complex!!

Who's the contact at Merimbula? I understand that that's where the ASIC processing place is, I haven't been able to find out where they are, address, if they deal with individual applications or just do bulk processing. Any info would be appreciated...Thanks

 

 

[MikeWebb]

I agree with everything said here but how does it get fixed? a campaign? AOPA,? boycott?. Safety was once the excuse for introducing excessive bureaucracy now it's security. Unfortunately we live in times where some controls are necessary to ensure the safety of the general public but the current ASIC rule ( and cost) is over the top.

 

I would be interested in members views on a solution

 

 

[Garfly]

In answer to petercoota's question (above):

 

Aviation ID at Merimbula airport is one of the private outfits that are authorised to handle ASICs and AVIDs for the government.

 

Yes, they certainly deal with individuals. The process now is really cumbersome (not their fault). There needs to be a face-to-face element so it can't be concluded on line. But I understand you can arrange to front up, at some stage in the process, to an authorised person close to where you live anywhere in Oz. Anyway, I decided, instead, to take a road trip down to the south coast and get it all done on the spot. They took the picture. They sighted the documents etc. and so they can just send it to me when it's done. It helped that mine was a renewal and they already had most of my information - which included all the details of every place I'd lived over the past X-many years, etc. etc.

 

Even if you go visit them (it's at the airport so you could fly in!) they expect you to have already filled in the form online. (I hadn't so they allowed me to hand write it there. But they already had much of my info.)

 

You can find out more info on their website:

 

Aviation ID Australia | Professional ASIC Distribution Centre

 

And you can call them to discuss: +61 2 6495 2881

 

It's an awful process but the people at Aviation ID are nice to deal with, at least.

 

(Good that at least someone is getting actual benefit from this absurd Yes Minister scenario.)

 

 

[Garfly]

Most people think if you own a plane you must be RICH. even if you built it yourself. So just hit them for a bit of dough.As an RAAus pilot, your payload mass speed and range make you of limited value indeed for terror actions Trucks have proven far more effective. Perhaps it's time to re assess this stupidity, and get REAL.. Nev

 

 

from The New Yorker.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Who's the contact at Merimbula? I understand that that's where the ASIC processing place is, I haven't been able to find out where they are, address, if they deal with individual applications or just do bulk processing. Any info would be appreciated...Thanks

Someone else has answered your enquiry however I just thought I might add the following advice:

 

Merimbula - As long as you dont try to enter/exit through the terminal building, no one cares if you have an ASIC or not.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I agree with everything said here but how does it get fixed? a campaign? AOPA,? boycott?. Safety was once the excuse for introducing excessive bureaucracy now it's security. Unfortunately we live in times where some controls are necessary to ensure the safety of the general public but the current ASIC rule ( and cost) is over the top.I would be interested in members views on a solution

Clearly not through AOPA, RAA or any of our representative bodies (they have had 10 years and have failed), so I guess you are starting down my suggested track(s) "boycott" - DONT BUY INTO ASIC - "campaign" - co ordinated fly in to your prefered RPT airfield, without an ASIC in sight.

 

 

[boleropilot]

OK, here's the plan - I am going to fly my Drifter from Boonah to Cooktown (and back) in 2018 - I do not have an ASIC card, although I did have one in the past

 

I am not going to get it renewed, I am simply going to get a red identity card with my photo on it and carry all my personal I.D. on my person

 

and if anyone asks me for it, I won't say anything, I'll just hold up my little red card that's hanging around my neck and see what happens next...

 

and if some Nazi says "that's not an ASIC card" I'll just say "I didn't say it is, I'm just giving you my I.D."

 

So - what's the worst thing that can happen? And, more to the point, wotcha reckon WILL happen - watch this space....

 

BP

 

 

[Jim188]

Hi All,

 

It seems to me, everyone is running out getting ASIC's and some don't need them.

 

So what's the real question that should be asked.

 

Do I need an ASIC Card?

 

Or can I really have a ASIC I.D., only if you Frequently fly into security airports.

 

So what does Frequently mean.

 

If someone frequently goes to the pub, it could be said they are going to the pub one or twice a week.

 

If someone frequently goes to the beach, it could be said they are going once or twice every two weeks.

 

If I am told someone frequently play tennis, you may think they play tennis weekly or fortnightly.

 

Now, if I go to the pub once a month, would you say I am going to the pub frequently, often or regularly, I would say often, but certainly not frequently.

 

What if you said to your Parents or Children,"I frequently visit you", would they agree with that statement if you visited them once or twice a month, they could think the term frequently is an overstatement on your behalf.

 

So if you are flying into secure airports once, twice a month and nothing every second month or say over 52 weeks you do 105 landing, but only 30 are to a secure airports, does that make you feel that you are frequently landing at a secure airport and need a ASIC I.D.

 

As you can see the meaning of frequently is very ambiguous and will have a different meaning to different people, but for me, I feel I don't need ASIC's because we don't frequently fly into secure airports under my meaning of frequently.

 

Does that mean you can't fly into smaller regional security airports at times, certainly not. Make a phone call before hand and nicely explain that you don't frequently use secure airports, so you don't have an ASIC I.D.. But on this occasion you need to land at their airport, but remember it's still their airport and they will have some hoops for you to jump through to make it happen.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Peter Anson]

OK, Skippydiesel says resist by not applying for an ASIC, which I sort of agree with, but the problem is that we won't overwhelm them with a show of disobedience. A few random pilots may cop very large fines while the rest will save a bit of money and wasted time, so my question is: Has anyone been fined for not having an ASIC at a security controlled airport?

 

 

[skippydiesel]

OK, Skippydiesel says resist by not applying for an ASIC, which I sort of agree with, but the problem is that we won't overwhelm them with a show of disobedience. A few random pilots may cop very large fines while the rest will save a bit of money and wasted time, so my question is: Has anyone been fined for not having an ASIC at a security controlled airport?

I have seen this question several times befor - Have yet to see it answeared.

 

It would be great to know - my bet 00.00 charges (which is as it should be)

 

 

[Bernie Knight]

Just a bit confused here

 

If you hold a current ASIC due for renewal is this new process needed or required for/by me

 

Or do I have an ASIC card that proves little about me and I need to go through the whole process again