Flying during Lockdown

[NT5224]

4 hours ago, jackc said:

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/grim-satellite-images-show-australias-covid-restrictions-from-the-sky/news-story/78e7c5a5508eec07c029a2cdfa2da9e6?utm_campaign=EditorialSB&utm_source=news.com.au&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=SocialBakers

 

 

I’m sorry, 

 

in my opinion  I see this a blatant propaganda by travel and tourism  interests seeking to bolster their profits. 

 

As SD said earlier in the thread, many of the countries that are opening  to travel have suffered tens of thousands of deaths and lose hundreds more each day. The Australian policy has saved many thousands of lives and continues to do so. 

 

Anybody  craving a resumption of international travel for that two week break in Bali, is that the price you’d be willing to pay in Australian lives?

 

These shameless stories are being put out there by big business interests desperate to claw back profit at the cost of human lives.

 

Cheers 

 

Alan

Edited September 10, 2021 by NT5224

[turboplanner]

39 minutes ago, NT5224 said:

 

 

I’m sorry, 

 

in my opinion  I see this a blatant propaganda by travel and tourism  interests seeking to bolster their profits. 

 

As SD said earlier in the thread, many of the countries that are opening  to travel have suffered tens of thousands of deaths and lose hundreds more each day. The Australian policy has saved many thousands of lives and continues to do so. 

 

Anybody  craving a resumption of international travel for that two week break in Bali, is that the price you’d be willing to pay in Australian lives?

 

These shameless stories are being put out there by big business interests desperate to claw back profit at the cost of human lives.

 

Cheers 

 

Alan

Spot on NT

These are totals as of today; imagine a little white cross on a field for each one.

[facthunter]

We might just be throwing away our good work. Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

We might just be throwing away our good work. Nev

Because of the exponential spread of the Delta variant, and the fact that so many of the general public just can't grasp the speed and multiplication factor of the spread, it's become clear that the game plan for NSW and Victoria is to save as many people as possible by vaccinating them - the USA solution if the current outbreaks do flare, at the same time with the tantalising possibility they can still knock them down. Regardless of the knock down success, both States have managed to ramp up vaccination centres to the point where deaths will be minimised. Of course if the blowout does come it will be self regulating; nothing like a steady death rate to have people knocking down the doors to get vaccinated, but the Johns Hopkins figures are still showing us up in a very good light.

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

As usual, you are being conned by not getting the full story from Scotty from marketing. 

We're in States of Emergency; he's not calling the shots or collating the results. Go to the State Departments of Health for the full story. Also the Commonwelath Department of Health (For example you can obtain the entire vaccination does purchase history, sourcing, decisions there.)

[Garfly]

Enough of all this mainstream science/epidemiology rubbish.

Surely, all that anyone needs to do, to guard against Covid 19, is to go out and buy one of those fantastic BioChargers - for a mere $15,000 - as promoted by good 'ol boy Pete Evans of the Great Australia Party.

 

Ah, yes, true science and honest politics comes together at GAP:

 

https://www.mamamia.com.au/pete-evans-senate-explainer/

 

"From anti-vaccination to IVF policies:

Everything we know about Pete Evans' move to politics.   //

... On Friday morning, former One Nation senator Rod Culleton announced that the former My Kitchen Rules judge has joined his Great Australian Party and will stand as a NSW senate candidate at the next federal election.  //

 

... The news comes on the back of a headline-grabbing year for Evans, who has become somewhat of a beacon for conspiracy theorists — from anti-vaxxers, to QAnon followers and pandemic deniers.

 

In April 2020, his company was fined more than $25,000 by the Therapeutic Goods Administration after he promoted an "energy healing" device called a 'BioCharger' to his 1.4 million Facebook followers, claiming via a live-stream that it could be used in relation to the coronavirus. The item was available for purchase on his website for close to AU$15,000.

 

In November, Evans posted a black sun Nazi symbol to social media that saw him dumped by his publisher PanMacmillan, sacked from an upcoming gig on Network Ten's I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out of Here, and had retailers including Big W, Coles, Dymocks, Kmart and Booktopia refuse to stock his books, food products and homewares.

The following month, Evans was banned by Facebook for repeatedly sharing misinformation about COVID-19. The chef-cum-influencer made numerous posts opposing vaccines and mask-wearing, and speaking on a New Zealand podcast in June described the pandemic as "a hoax".  "

 

 

 

 

Let me save you the trouble Flighty:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Garfly

[onetrack]

You only have to mention Rod Culleton to turn a lot of people off, on the spot. The man's record speaks for itself - failed businessman who took a lot of farmers for a ride, carried on like a pork chop when his company was liquidated, got involved in fights over repossessions, acted like an idiot when he fronted court - he's Australia's Donald Trump, he lives on another planet and has a distorted view of reality.

[BirdDog]

Let’s bow we go the way of Denmark. 
 

These Covid passports are going to be a PITA.

 

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/denmark-becomes-first-country-in-eu-to-drop-all-covid19-restrictions-as-nation-passes-70-per-cent-vaccination/news-story/da8aebff81793d807a017fed4ec3772c

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, BirdDog said:

Let’s bow we go the way of Denmark. 
 

These Covid passports are going to be a PITA.

 

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/denmark-becomes-first-country-in-eu-to-drop-all-covid19-restrictions-as-nation-passes-70-per-cent-vaccination/news-story/da8aebff81793d807a017fed4ec3772c

Denmark's Covid -19 cum. death rate is 44.85 per 100,000 population - 13 times the rate of Australia

Australia's cum.is 4.2 per 100,000 population

Source: Johns Hopkins University of Medicine 9/9/21

 

If the Denmark performance was applied to Australia's population we would have 11,450 dead instead of 1066.

And Denmark is opening up now with Covid-12's exponential spread. vs Australia opening up maybe late October on our rate per 100,000 at that time.

Someone experienced at exponential equations might be able to predict the comparison by Christmas.

 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

The New York Times

Sept. 10, 2021

By Roni Caryn Rabin

 

Unvaccinated Americans are 11 times more likely to die of Covid, the C.D.C. reports.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/health/unvaccinated-covid-19-deaths.html

 

Excerpt:

 

" “As we have shown, study after study, vaccination works,” said Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at a White House Covid briefing on Friday.

As more and more Americans become vaccinated, experts always expected that immunized people would represent a greater percentage of hospitalized patients. “What I want to reiterate here is it’s still well over 90 percent of people who are in the hospital who are unvaccinated,” Dr. Walensky said.

“We still have more than 10 times the number of people in the hospital who are unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated,” she added. "

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

 

 

9 hours ago, BirdDog said:

These Covid passports are going to be a PITA.

That's not a PITA,  this is a PITA:

"I've seen full-grown men I work with just break down crying. That's a daily occurrence. We're already at the brink and I just don't know how 'opening up' is going to go. I'm so nervous about it. When will it end? It's just relentless". Belinda*, Sydney-based COVID ward nurse

"They say we’re coping now, but you only have to speak to the staff day to day, week to week, they’re suffering in silence. Just ask the ambos, ask the people in ICU, they will tell you we’re on the brink" - Greg*, 40-year veteran nurse, Victoria

"I've been called a 'COVID bitch' on my way home from work, people say to me: 'How do you sleep at night with your dirty COVID money?'. It's exhausting to hide part of yourself so that you can feel safe, even though you are helping keep people safe" Denise*, COVID vaccine nurse

 

Source:

Australia's COVID-19 Delta outbreak

is pushing frontline hospital staff to the brink       (6 Sep. 2021)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-06/covid-hospital-health-care-workers-stress/100423832

[BirdDog]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Denmark's Covid -19 cum. death rate is 44.85 per 100,000 population - 13 times the rate of Australia

Australia's cum.is 4.2 per 100,000 population

Source: Johns Hopkins University of Medicine 9/9/21

 

If the Denmark performance was applied to Australia's population we would have 11,450 dead instead of 1066.

And Denmark is opening up now with Covid-12's exponential spread. vs Australia opening up maybe late October on our rate per 100,000 at that time.

Someone experienced at exponential equations might be able to predict the comparison by Christmas.

 

 

 

 

Let’s get some perspective lads. This straight from the ABS.  link below for you.  
 

IN AUSTRALIA 

• There were 5,043 deaths from respiratory diseases between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID.  

There were 766 deaths due to influenza and pneumonia recorded between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID. 

 

• 20,143 deaths from cancer occurred between January and May 2021.

Why are Covid deaths more important?

 

 

 

Source. ABS

 

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/health/causes-death/provisional-mortality-statistics/latest-release

 

 

[BirdDog]

10 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

That's not a PITA,  this is a PITA:

"I've seen full-grown men I work with just break down crying. That's a daily occurrence. We're already at the brink and I just don't know how 'opening up' is going to go. I'm so nervous about it. When will it end? It's just relentless". Belinda*, Sydney-based COVID ward nurse

"They say we’re coping now, but you only have to speak to the staff day to day, week to week, they’re suffering in silence. Just ask the ambos, ask the people in ICU, they will tell you we’re on the brink" - Greg*, 40-year veteran nurse, Victoria

"I've been called a 'COVID bitch' on my way home from work, people say to me: 'How do you sleep at night with your dirty COVID money?'. It's exhausting to hide part of yourself so that you can feel safe, even though you are helping keep people safe" Denise*, COVID vaccine nurse

 

Source:

Australia's COVID-19 Delta outbreak

is pushing frontline hospital staff to the brink       (6 Sep. 2021)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-06/covid-hospital-health-care-workers-stress/100423832

dude I have plenty of family in the health system and ambos. Don’t believe all the crap you read.  Keep perspective. 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by BirdDog

[Flightrite]

1 minute ago, BirdDog said:

Let’s get some perspective lads. This straight from the ABS.  link below for you.  
 

IN AUSTRALIA 

• There were 5,043 deaths from respiratory diseases between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID.  

There were 766 deaths due to influenza and pneumonia recorded between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID. 

 

• 20,143 deaths from cancer occurred between January and May 2021.

Why are Covid deaths more important?

 

 

 

Source. ABS

 

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/health/causes-death/provisional-mortality-statistics/latest-release

 

 

Save ya breath Birdy, the usual suspects simply believe in their own fear!, love it:-)

[turboplanner]

The USA ran a one-fix strategy - vaccination, and so far it has left them with over 600,000 dead.

PLENTY in the medical profession over there screwed up big time and will pay for it with their careers and houses, so we see in the US debates oddball things like "when vaccinations reach 100%, 100% of the people in hospital will be vaccinated people - the message being its a sliding scale so getting vassinated doesn't help. Garfly's story is the response to one of these nitwits.

Australia still has the two-strategy policy advantage which has allowed us to keep the breakout numbers down, and shut down breakouts completely instead of just letting it rip and trying to reduce deaths by vaccination.

 

Right now we have some business sectors in NSW and Vic squealing for us to "open up" and I notice in Vic squealing for kids to go back to school, apparently not realising that we topped the NAPLAN scores after last year's months long lockdown.

 

Within a month or so, most people in Sydney and Melbourne will have been vaccinated and be even more stridently calling for Australia to open up, overseas flights to be opened up, because we know that the worst that can happen to us is the equivalent of a bad dose of flu.

That's group 1

 

Group 2 will be the unvaccinated.

First, a minority with less say and a lot less sympathy

Open to infections from a lot more facilities conducting business.

Infected by their own, because they have also been the ones disregarding lockdown rules like not travelling across town for a 30 member family birthday, going to see mothers fathers, partying and travelling.

Much worse than that is the failure of all vaccines so far to stop the vaccinated (Group 1) getting infected and spreading the disease, to Group 2,  and people being people, not bothering to get tested and isolate because Covid is not going to hurt them.

The Covid Passport which is being derided by the non-vaccinated is designed to protect that diminishing number of people, but how well is it going to be administered once there are enough customers free to shop and travel?

My forecast is that by the end of October Group 2 will take over from the businesses, people stranded oveseas etc on morning TV with their heartbreaking stories of being left to die, and people being what people are it will be interesting to see the reaction from the vaccinated.

 

 

 

[Garfly]

35 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

 Don’t believe all the crap you read.  Keep perspective. 

 

I take your point there BD.  I really do.

 

34 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Save ya breath Birdy, the usual suspects simply believe in their own fear!, love it:-)

Yes, Flighty, there's something in what you say ... others, on the other hand, believe in the BioCharger* and internet chain letters (those 'gems')   LOL. Human factors!  What can we do?

 

*  https://www.mamamia.com.au/pete-evans-senate-explainer/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Garfly

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

Let’s get some perspective lads. This straight from the ABS.  link below for you.  
IN AUSTRALIA There were 5,043 deaths from respiratory diseases between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID.  There were 766 deaths due to influenza and pneumonia recorded between January and May 2021. NOT INCLUDING COVID. 20,143 deaths from cancer occurred between January and May 2021.Why are Covid deaths more important?Source. ABShttps://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/health/causes-death/provisional-mortality-statistics/latest-release

 

In fact there are a lot more deaths per year than that which all go to add up to our yearly death rate.

No one has said Covid deaths are more important; we are just discussing Covid and the effect it is having on our lives.
You've quoted primarily linear deaths; Covid produces exponential deaths.

If we sat back and did nothing as you seem to be implying, we might finish up with the same rate as Peru, which would give Australia so far 150,000 deaths. How dumb would that be?

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by turboplanner

[octave]

13 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

Why are Covid deaths more important?

 

The number of covid deaths may seem small compared to other deaths but remember the number of covid deaths is markedly reduced by the measures we are taking against it.     in other words covid would dwarf these other causes of death if we just let it rip.   And for some of the other examples,  cancer is not contagious.

[poteroo]

This COVID pandemic is having the waters muddied via confusion over which cohort of the population is included. Denmarks data includes everyone over 12 - not just the over 16s.  That makes the 70% benchmark espoused by our PM and the NSW Premier, look much less challenging - when it really requires a much higher number. What I think have not been factored into all the optimistic benchmarks are:

 

1. the 12-16 group

2. the significantly higher transmissability of the Delta variant

3. the wilful non-reporting of cases

4. the wilful non vaccination population who will continue to keep the virus circulating.

 

On the other hand, our own Dear Leader has begun to suffer hubris on a massive scale by nominating next April as the open up date. We can't holdout forever, and it now requires a serious WA government push to vaccinate. IMHO, we will never, ever, reach 80% vaccinated when it includes all over 12s, and 90% of the indigenous population.  Tighten your seatbelts!

[BirdDog]

I’m not saying we do nothing. Don’t get me wrong.  Of course Covid is a problem but I think the response needs to match the threats. 
 

These images attached are again from the governments own site and data.  Make of it what you will. But let’s discuss. I would like to hear what we all think of these graphs. 
 

Source - Health.gov.au

 

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/09/coronavirus-covid-19-at-a-glance-1-september-2021.pdf

 

[BirdDog]

I guess the first question is. If I’m in my 40s. What is more of a risk?  My flying me aircraft or dying of Covid?

 

Of course the government does not want me getting it and passing it on to someone who is 70.  Sure. But the vaccine does not prevent that, so what is the actual point then?

Edited September 11, 2021 by BirdDog

[onetrack]

The actual point is to reduce the COVID-19 virus to one where it is not termed a "pandemic". Perhaps you need to check up on the definition of "pandemic", which is exactly what this virus is, and what it has been declared in every country in the world.

[BirdDog]

9 minutes ago, onetrack said:

The actual point is to reduce the COVID-19 virus to one where it is not termed a "pandemic". Perhaps you need to check up on the definition of "pandemic", which is exactly what this virus is, and what it has been declared in every country in the world.

I get that. But that was not my question. 
 

Let’s look at a scenario….

 

they don’t want to let unvaccinated in a pub. Ok Goodo. Let’s roll with that. 
 

99 vaccinated people in there, and the next guy walks in also vaccinated but has Covid. 
 

what was the point of keeping the unvaccinated out?  Was there any benefit to that?  
 

Now I can already hear people say “it reduces the chance.”  Ok. Reduce but not eliminate so we can pretty much guarantee one of the vaxed will have it (it’s delta after all) so the actual level of chance is unimportant. 
 

So again. What was the benefit of keeping the unvaxed out if the vaxed can still spread it?  Simple question.  

[octave]

4 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

what was the point of keeping the unvaccinated out?  Was there any benefit to that?  

 

Because the unvaccinated person is more likely to need medical resources.  Sure one person will not make a big difference to the load in ICU but over a whole population the effect could be big.

Edited September 11, 2021 by octave

[Marty_d]

 

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

I guess the first question is. If I’m in my 40s. What is more of a risk?  My flying me aircraft or dying of Covid?

 

Of course the government does not want me getting it and passing it on to someone who is 70.  Sure. But the vaccine does not prevent that, so what is the actual point then?

 

Wrong question, really.  If you're going to compare the two, think of it this way:  If there was a slight change you could make to your flying, either a piece of safety equipment or a change to procedure, that would make you a little bit safer and also make aircraft around you safer, and it was totally free, would you use it?

 

Because that's what the vaccine does.

 

Saying the vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid and passing it on to someone who is 70 is not entirely correct.  The vaccine both reduces your chances of getting it, cuts down the viral load so your chances of passing it on are much reduced, and gives you a much better chance of not getting seriously sick.  Did I mention it's free?

 

So not really sure what your problem is with it.