My spies tell me Jabiru has been sold

[facthunter]

Hospitals generally have diesel back up but surely a large battery somewhere near would do the job better. Maybe Hydrogen direct to electricity or a turbine would work also. You don't have to warm up a turbine.  Nev

[facthunter]

Urbane has a completely different meaning to urban.   You can "myth" the point of the argument  Nev

[skippydiesel]

Thanks Nev: I need all the spelling help I can get - been a problem (for me) since my school days.

[facthunter]

To be urbane wouldn't be that bad, especially if you aspire to being the "English Gentleman " type.  Correcting things is natural for an ex-chalky.  Nev

[spacesailor]

A turbine , only need a valve opened for it to spin .

The  boilers on the other hand need to be " fired up " hours before , and as they know when they will  be called on, they , (  bureaucrats  ) , who run the show,  ' Should have done their ' job.

spacesailor

 

[coljones]

2 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

A turbine , only need a valve opened for it to spin .

The  boilers on the other hand need to be " fired up " hours before , and as they know when they will  be called on, they , (  bureaucrats  ) , who run the show,  ' Should have done their ' job.

spacesailor

 

Depends! A steam turbine needs a boiler

[spacesailor]

Second line : " the boilers " .

Water tube or fire tube !.

AND NOW ' Flash Boilers ' do not need a "  certified fireman ' to operate,  And again can be .

"  Fully-Automated ' .

Another three $ 20,000 a year workers gone , to a $ multimillion ' computer ' .

spacesailor

 

[FlyBoy1960]

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

Another three $ 20,000 a year workers gone , to a $ multimillion ' computer ' .

spacesailor

 

Showing your age, you earn more than that working part time at McDonalds, my local cefe need to pay $37 per hour + super

[facthunter]

Holding the stop and GO signs on roadworks pays quite well too.   Nev

[FlyBoy1960]

OK, hydrogen and hydrogen electric could well be the way to go in the future and this new development by Yamaha Marine is showing a clear way forward. The link goes to information about them exhibiting a four-cylinder hydrogen powered marine engine

 

 

tinyurl.com/yneb7nzy

[facthunter]

Really, there are LOTS of Possibilities. You can go Hydrogen -electric.  Burning it in some heat motor is always going to be limited in efficiency and reliability.  Nev

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

OK, hydrogen and hydrogen electric could well be the way to go in the future and this new development by Yamaha Marine is showing a clear way forward. The link goes to information about them exhibiting a four-cylinder hydrogen powered marine engine

 

 

tinyurl.com/yneb7nzy

Toyota HICE Technology is there now, since we don’t have an NOx limit on aero engines.

[onetrack]

JCB already have one of their standard diesel engines re-engineered to run satisfactorily on hydrogen. More than a third of Perths buses are diesels running on CNG, and they have been doing this for around 15 years successfully.

 

CNG is readily available here in the West, hydrogen is in limited supply everywhere - the problems centre around developing processes to produce viable amounts of low-cost hydrogen, and installing distribution networks for alternative fuels. Carbon fibre tanks appear to be the answer to hydrogen storage.

 

Either way, alternative fuels still have a long way to go to meet the current cost of fossil fuels.

The Japanese Govt and Japanese industry have a monstrous size R&D fund, dedicated to finding sources of cheap hydrogen and developing distribution networks for it, and I can assure you they won't hold back on the spending to do this, it is a national aim of the Japanese.

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

On 06/12/2023 at 9:00 PM, Litespeed said:

Brendan ,

 

I was intrigued by your earlier comment on nuclear waste and our moral responsibility to take it back and store it. 

 

Can you extrapolate your reasoning and how,  it should work? Could it be a big earner?

 

 

news announcement today.  by 2027 4 american nuc subs will be based at stirling naval base with 700 americans being stationed there too as well as a new low level radioactive waste facility which will be constructed on garden island. thats on perths doorstep.

[Litespeed]

What's the purpose of the low level waste storage?

 

It would not be related to nuclear power, maybe they are talking medical waste products?

 

Do you have a link?

[onetrack]

More info below .... but not a whisper from anyone in Govt about that "low level nuclear waste" in all the trumpeting over the AUKUS deal.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-14/aukus-deal-jim-chalmers-hmas-stirling-expansion-perth-wa/102092058

 

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/bd/bd2223a/23bd081

 

https://theconversation.com/australia-hasnt-figured-out-low-level-nuclear-waste-storage-yet-let-alone-high-level-waste-from-submarines-201781

[onetrack]

Found a little more info - but still nothing on what "low level radioactive waste" actually is.

 

I gather from other sources it is cleaning equipment, safety equipment and tools that have been lightly irradiated and which cannot be re-used, as they're then classed as radioactive.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-18/aukus-americans-western-australia-radioactive-storage-facility/103239924

 

https://www.aumanufacturing.com.au/australia-hasnt-figured-out-low-level-nuclear-waste-storage-yet-let-alone-high-level-waste-from-submarines

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, Litespeed said:

What's the purpose of the low level waste storage?

 

It would not be related to nuclear power, maybe they are talking medical waste products?

 

Do you have a link?

so you don't think there might be a connection between the subs and the waste facility. and why would they put a medical waste facility on garden island.

[FlyBoy1960]

Could it be depleted uranium bullets ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65051330

[BrendAn]

On 04/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, aro said:

Industry is never going to buy nuclear power, it's too expensive.

Already, solar and wind are producing enough power that prices sometimes go negative at times of high production (during the day, when solar is producing and happily industry tends to be most active). Industry would rather build storage and buy cheap power (or even be paid to take it) than buy expensive nuclear power.

Storage for industry has the advantage that it doesn't need to be portable, so weight and size are not such an issue. Cheap materials are more important than e.g. low weight.

The nuclear industry knows they have missed the boat. They are desperately trying to convince people they need their expensive power so they don't have to write off their investments.

2 new reactors getting installed in the uk right now. they go online in 2028. 

Facebook.html

[onetrack]

And still no country in the world has a scheme to deal with nuclear waste. Everyone thinks it's a great idea to bury nuclear waste in the centre of the Outback, because it's so isolated.

However, after Maralinga, and the Poms generally treating inland Australia like a nuclear waste dump, no-one is ever going to get approval from the Indigenes to bury nuclear waste in the Outback.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

And still no country in the world has a scheme to deal with nuclear waste. Everyone thinks it's a great idea to bury nuclear waste in the centre of the Outback, because it's so isolated.

However, after Maralinga, and the Poms generally treating inland Australia like a nuclear waste dump, no-one is ever going to get approval from the Indigenes to bury nuclear waste in the Outback.

That can be true; Victoria's biggest Toxic Waste Site is at Dandenong in Melbourne where the entire city of Melbourne can be covered by PM10. Dandenong in a health check around 2002 had a lung cancer rate around 35% above the State average so the government decided it should be closed down and a more remote place found. They settled on a location way out in the Mallee inhabited mainly by kangaroos and rabbits. The prevailing winds would carry particulate matter over remote country. The people of Mildura, with no chance of any worse airs than they were getting from their own, unregulated,  toxic dumps, RIP'd the Mallee Fowls every couple of kilometres up the main highway, and every shop in the town had a red skull and crossbones on a white background in the window, some with a WW2 gas mask they'd found in the shed. A semi trailer with a gigantic sign painted on it took up residence outside the terminal door. Every second car had a red skull and crossbones. Probably the best campaign I've ever seen, but it didn't sway the tough Minister, so the unions got involved and black banned every proposed truck that might be carrying toxic waste. The government kept the Dandenong site and these days, I would assume, kill a few every year.

So even though a Nuclear Power plant is usually safe (Fukushima Plant's location was as its name might imply - below Tsunami height), it's quite possible the Planning stage could be used to try to stop it, although by then the government would just introduce an essential services Act.

Practically, nuclear disposal would not be a problem; we now have the ability to bury it deep under the ocean.

However the Nuclear boat has been missed; Australia doesn't have the spare money to build even one, and the lead time to complete one is so far out into the future that (a) we will have built about five coal-fired plants and won't buy from it or (b) half way through its build we will have reached the predicted points where the ocean should have risen about 0.8 of a metre, destroying much of Australia's coastal infrastructure and houses. When that hasn't happened perhaps then people will start to say "What were those people saying about a UN Climate Scan in 1973? Let's do some research and see why the ocean hasn't risen and the summers are no hotter than they always were." Then they'll throw the government of the day out, the new government will cancel the contract. 

[turboplanner]

This follows on from eralier posts about a battery powered Aircraft (BAC)

 

It is for the people genuinely interested in a development pathway for an electric Training Aircraft (early training only), so a very specific Application.

 

In our earlier discussion, using the cross-section of a BYD Seal and without the aerodynamic coefficient, (so the same as the aircraft widest section piece of plywood another poster gave us), we saw that Air Power Demand (the power required just to overcome wind resistance) increased exponentially as speed increased.

 

Speed (km/hr)             Airpower Demand (kW)

50                                4

60                                8

80                                18

100                              35

110                              47

130 (70 kts)                 77

181 (98 kts)                 223 

 

I’ve posted the BYD figures again only because (a) I’m waiting on someone to post some battery drain figures at given continuous cruise speeds and (b) we don’t have an aircraft cross section data or Aerodynamic coefficient.

 

At this stage we’re only interested in seeing what happens to Airpower Demand when you push a given body faster and faster through the air.

 

If we add Aircraft speeds to the same chart, we can see there’s a huge percentage increase in air power demand (because the equation is speed x speed x speed x the rest.)

 

We’re interested only in the percentages.

 

For those having difficulty getting their focus off the actual numbers and on to the percentage differences, if we insert the Aerodynamic Coefficient into the equation, those high kilowatt figures will drop down into the aircraft power figures we are all familiar with.

 

If we’re designing a product, before we start looking for a solution we need to investigate the Application.

 

Maybe someone will invent a long range battery some day in the future, but we have to work with what we’ve got, so that means looking at a short range application like early stage student training on circuits.

 

Since Flying schools charge by the hour and less than an hour doesn’t leave much experience time, I’m setting a minimum 1 hour safe flight.

 

There are two reasons for including the word safe;

 

1.     As we know from using electric tools and cars the batteries don’t always quit on the last minute of the stated range, perhaps because the last person didn’t fully charge it etc. So given we are in a forced landing situation as soon as it is drained, we need a buffer.

2.     Just because we are flying an electric aircraft we are not absolved from carrying a minimum range worth of power.

 

(a)   Because the weather may close in at the end of the circuit you need

(b)   Because fog might move in fast and cut you off

(c)   Because there maybe an incident such as a crash on the runway which requires the airport to be closed.

(d)   And so on, and you need a considerable number of minutes for that because you have to find another airfield.

 

So we need well over an hour of power.

 

If we look at the 2023 Pipistrel Electro Velo (chosen because it quotes minutes range)

Power:             57.6 kW

Cruise:             98 kcas   (181 km/hr)

Max Range:    50 minutes

Useful load:     172 kg

 

Issue for training:        Weight of Instructors and students

 

How could we meet the Application? (I’ll leave the weight aside for this exercise)

 

If we just look at Air Power demand, we always take off into wind so we have additional Airpower demand speed equal to the wind speed. On crosswind the wind speed is neutral. On downwind we get a bonus off Airpower at cruise. On Base the wind is

neutral but speed is reducing so less Airpower demand, and on final the wind is blowing again, but the speed is substantially slower.

 

What can we do to meet the above theoretical Application with the Pipistrel Velis Electro (if we assume the stated range of 50 minutes is at full power for most of the circuit)

 

From our chart we can see that if we start with the Pipistrel Cruise speed of 98 knots and slow down to 70 kts, the Airpower demand on our piece of plywood is reduced to 35% of what we needed at 98 knots.

 

This puts us in the category of legally being able to fly 500’ circuits, so on top of what we just gained, it now only takes half the time to get to 500’ when we can turn crosswind, so we have a much smaller circuit, so even at 70 knots we get plenty of circuits in an hour.

 

Battery drain time usually varies with power demand, so the question is whether we could get this model Pipistrel to stretch to an hour + reserve at the lower Airpower demand.

 

 

 

[coljones]

16 hours ago, BrendAn said:

so you don't think there might be a connection between the subs and the waste facility. and why would they put a medical waste facility on garden island.

Any ship in a navy is like a small town and with medical facilities to match (or better) so they need facilities to treat sailors and store the biological and hazardous wastes til their next friendly port visit.

[Cooko]

I only started flying a few years ago but I distincly remembering that 1 hour of training was too much in the beginning. I reckon my performance would tail off after about 30-45 minutes. 

However as my ICE plane required post start checks, warm up and run ups and with the meter running, I realised that 30-45 minute sessions would not be an efficient way to spend money! Something to consider perhaps.