The Unforgiving (née Impossible) Turn.

[Wirraway]

In my training in  a Jab 170C, just after take off the instructor closed the throttle.

I wasn't expecting it so close to the ground to be honest, but I lowered the nose, went into a tight turn, instructor says tighter still, then rudder only to straighten, and we were over the threshhold safely.

When I asked how high we were, "about 250 feet" was the response.

 

However, he did  warn against practising that on my own.
I have heard of Jabs being turned around much lower.
 

But from much more experienced pilots, "....it depends on the aircraft, would never attempt anything like that in a Cessna 172..."

 

I am a new pilot, make no claim to being a good pilot, but from all I have read, managing speed and using rudder are vital in avoiding stalls and spins.
Read an article from the U.S. recently, (there may well have been a link to it from this forum), that the first thing to do is push the nose down, then start working out what has happened, maintaing speed is of the essence.

 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

 

 

https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/12/an-engineering-approach-to-the-impossible-turn/?trk_msg=VDMFISJ1CJ4KR6290F711ER3F8&trk_contact=TP0NO766QS9G20UOM7VT2QLI2S&trk_sid=RGE700OAQH8CGDDFS2UIV20UJS&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=READ+MORE&utm_campaign=F20124A&utm_content=Christmas+Flying+Stories+%2b+An+Incredible+Alaska+Trip

[Old Koreelah]

I’ve done a few AFATO practices at altitude to see how much height I’d lose in the turn.

After takeoff from runway 14, the idea is to build up airspeed in ground effect; if things go quiet in this phase there is room to land ahead.

After hitting 70kt the idea is to climb steeply to get to about 300ft, from which it should be possible to turn 100 Degrees to make 24 cross strip. Drifting to the left (crosswind permitting) would be prudent to facilitate the turn.

After about 500ft it should be possible to do the turn back to 32; I’m already well to the left of the runway centre-line ready to turn.

[Old Koreelah]

Tragic reminder:

 

 

[SSCBD]

This is all guess work. IT always depends on conditions and aircraft type,  eg wind / no wind / gusts / turbulence from trees hangars etc -  where you are eg terrain conditions at the end of the runway -- what you are in - aircraft type  - also what weight and height you are at. AND how skilled or game you are to die. 

No one can give you an answer because it will usually happen when you are in dead mans curve anyway (forgive me the chopper pilots term).

Remember when the noise stops along the runway -  how long will the shock of - Jesus Christ last before you really act and think it through. How much airspeed (ENERGY) has been lost 5 - 10 kts in that time really.  

The only answer is to get the wheels one foot off the ground in a paddock and you should be able to walk away. 

This is just a few things to think about when it happens.   

Stop this guess work it will kill you. 

[onetrack]

I'm not all that sure about how far into the "impossible turn", the pilot at Serpentine was. He crashed just to the right of the runway, and not far from the end of it. 

 

I'm only guessing that he wasn't too far above Vmc when the engine failed, and the rapid loss of thrust led to a stall, very quickly. There would be no time to deliberate on landing area choices.

 

The Dyn-Aero stall characteristics could also have played a big part in this, too. The specifications state a stall speed of 47 kts.

 

The Dyn-Aero is a very light "plastic fantastic" with a high top speed performance, but obviously with low-speed control inability. It's definitely not a STOL aircraft.

 

There were also some sharp wind gusts around yesterday afternoon. A gust may have hit him at the most inopportune moment.