Admin Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Ok Guys, I will let the cat out of the bag now...for some time, and some others have known this, I have had the documents to start a 2nd organisation...aptly named Recreational Flying however I have not acted on them due to 2 specific reasons...1 is that I really really wanted to give RAAus a chance to fix itself and didn't want to do anything that would jeopardise the viability of RAAus in any way at all and 2, the cost that I would have to pay CASA's legal people, an hourly rate mind you, to go through each document to check that all was ok. This started almost 12 months ago when I first raised the question with CASA. Since then RAAus has sunk deeper and deeper, failing audits, mismanagement by amateurs, groundings, the political games etc etc etc...and even whilst all the crap was going on with what they tried to do with me, I still wanted to give RAAus a chance to turn things around. No matter what happens we WILL all still be able to fly, register aircraft, transfer registrations etc because no matter what happens, the whole recreational aviation industry is just so big that it won't stop. BUT, the question is how much more do we have to put up with the inadequacies and political games whilst we keep on flying...why do we have to keep putting up with all this??? I want to be able to put OUR Association up on a pedestal, I want to respect our Association and it be the talk of the aviation industry on how good the management of it is, how good a self regulating body can be...I want to, and have always made that very clear...very clear that I am passionate about OUR Association. ...but...perhaps....there may be a better way to achieve it...and that could well be competition as competition WILL lift the game no end and there is only two entities that will benefit by it...the Industry as a whole and US, the recreational aviation community. My own personal opinion as Ian, not as site admin 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Well how many hours would it take you to provide answers if a similar request was made to you Andy - that would be an interesting comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 We have been caught up in it - better half rang (Tue/Wed?) to renew our Lightwing and was told there was a problem taking his payment but would be resolved in 48 hours, rang back Friday - will be resolved by Monday. He got the impression it was a computer problem. Our renewal is due on Monday. If I hadn't read it on this forum I would still be thinking it was an EFTPOS issue. Also wondering about the Jab that was damaged at Wungong Dam, WA on Friday. Report says he bought it that morning and was insured. Given he could not have transferred it through RAA, I wonder what the insurers would do about that. By my reckoning there would be 40 - 50 aircraft a week affected. Perhaps they are hoping that drying up the funds will push the problem up to a resolution. I am still in the dark about what the fuss is all about but it is getting serious. Sue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Missed yours Ian, don't kid yourself the Association is too big; that's what the airline pilots thought and many never worked again. This is not a commercial activity so duplicated organizations would just double the complexity in memberships, registrations, but more importantly in who audits what performance - You could have two schools on the same field with different procedures, different training, different documentation, different maintenance culture and different aircraft specifications. Having worked directly with a Minister without a "CASA" I would be exploring the legality of a stand alone self administering Association. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Well how many hours would it take you to provide answers if a similar request was made to you Andy - that would be an interesting comparison. Sorry Turb's dont understand the question. Speculation, if you are asking would my questions take some time to answer? then they clearly would, but if you only had to answer it once rather than take calls from everyone who was dissatisfied with the non answers so far...... then you might actually save time.... If your suggesting that full answers in this timeframe (ie less than 48hrs, I agree that full and frank answers to all are unlikely today. but there must be some of those questions that could be answered? no? Andy P.S If Sue ran into trouble registering on Tue /Wed then it would seem that 48hrs is more likely nearly 5 days now.....(assuming the delays on Tue are the same delays) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I was trying to show, Andy, that a smart guy like you would be able to put together a bulletin covering these points and load it on the web around the start of when the leaks started (and nobody seems to be concerned that some people received prior advice) But I didn't spell it out clearly enough, so here, based on my records is the time it would take me to put together answers which would give customers a fair idea of the magnitude of the problems. Obviously this is a two stage process, the first being to immediately provide this information, and the second to get responses from insurers etc. So the times it took me to answer your questions were: 1) 1/2 second 2) 1/2 second 3) 1/2 second 4) 2 minutes 5) estimates 2 minutes 6) 1/2 second 7) estimates 5 minutes 8) estimates 10 minutes Total 19 minutes and 2 seconds And in the corporate world I live in I'd be fired if I didn't assess things that fast and get the information immediately to the customer before the rumours hit. The hardest thing to ever do is give someone bad news, but if you do it quickly, and if you tell them what you know, and what you don't know yet, they can plan their business around it. They may not be happy, but they almost never desert you. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Well said 'ol fella' ... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 A hell of a lot of members still in the dark. I spoke to my CFI and he was gob smacked....a few other boys in the dark to. ,1 being a lawyer said he would seek legal action to recover all costs including membership,cost of aircraft etc... and claimed we would all have a very good case if we were grounded due to no fault of our own..He also claims if He can not re-reg his plane he will claim compansation for every day that proceeds his denial..as he has invested X$$$$$ to the membership ,training,aircraft (not in good faith but as a legal contract)he CLAIMS he would win? anyway a very sad day for RAA lets just wait and see guys..no need to tightend the rope just yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 And when the lawyers get involved, the only ones that win are... the lawyers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I think the "no renewal registrations" is CASA politely saying: "You have consistently failed to address the issues. Now, take your time - we don't care how long it takes, but you will now care, because as it drags on, your members are not going to be happy". It is hard on individual members, but CASAs remit is safety, not being nice. And they have given RA-Aus three chances, so we can't complain we weren't warned. Except we were not warned, because our board doesn't tell us anything we need to know...but that is our problem, not CASAs problem. Self-administration has failed on this, both to CASA, and to the membership. We need to get a full and complete explanation from the board, of the problem, its origins, how is has been addressed to date, and how it will now be addressed. Recriminations can come after we have a credible plan to deal with the issue. dodo 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I have just read on another forum & the poster is definately a reliable source . RAA have restrictions imposed on them from CASA.No more new registrations & no more renewal registrations at this time.Not even registration Transfer. The poster has received this information straight from the RAA. PS- doesnt mean that its all doom & gloom. Could be a temporary measure. Hopefully get sorted early in the week. Assistant Op's Manager Julie was at WSL this morning doing an audit on a flying school. Told her I just bought a P2002 Sierra and I want it in my name when I pick it up next Sunday!!!! Well time will tell. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Doing this without warning is not fair. If it applies to any it applies to all. Assistance rather than muscling is what is required. This is a lottery that some lose and some don't through no fault of their own regardless of category of aircraft or previous history of operation. You could have been doing the right thing for years. If your plane comes up for processing now you can't use it. What do you reckon this would do to ANY business?. If being sued for years with potential bankruptcy looming over the organisation. ( enough of a scary situation to prevent thinking board members retaining their positions)., then being unable (not allowed) to fulfil obligations to members to keep their planes in the air,with NO alternative process being put in place in the meantime. This is nothing but straight out punishment. I may be the only one who feels this way but to me there is something very wrong with what is going on here. I wonder what Dick Smith thinks about it? He actually flys U/L stuff., and has run CASA... Nev 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfox1 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 If it keeps going the way it is there will a lot of unregistered aircraft flying out there,we will go back to the eighties when things were so simple then . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Ok Guys, I will let the cat out of the bag now...for some time, and some others have known this, I have had the documents to start a 2nd organisation...aptly named Recreational Flying however I have not acted on them due to 2 specific reasons...1 is that I really really wanted to give RAAus a chance to fix itself and didn't want to do anything that would jeopardise the viability of RAAus in any way at all and 2, the cost that I would have to pay CASA's legal people, an hourly rate mind you, to go through each document to check that all was ok.This started almost 12 months ago when I first raised the question with CASA. Since then RAAus has sunk deeper and deeper, failing audits, mismanagement by amateurs, groundings, the political games etc etc etc...and even whilst all the crap was going on with what they tried to do with me, I still wanted to give RAAus a chance to turn things around. No matter what happens we WILL all still be able to fly, register aircraft, transfer registrations etc because no matter what happens, the whole recreational aviation industry is just so big that it won't stop. BUT, the question is how much more do we have to put up with the inadequacies and political games whilst we keep on flying...why do we have to keep putting up with all this??? I want to be able to put OUR Association up on a pedestal, I want to respect our Association and it be the talk of the aviation industry on how good the management of it is, how good a self regulating body can be...I want to, and have always made that very clear...very clear that I am passionate about OUR Association. ...but...perhaps....there may be a better way to achieve it...and that could well be competition as competition WILL lift the game no end and there is only two entities that will benefit by it...the Industry as a whole and US, the recreational aviation community. My own personal opinion as Ian, not as site admin I am scared that the motive is to destroy or blackmail this organization to form another and this organization is 10,000 strong and only a few people not performing could be the problem, I think we need to improve performance and not create competetion, unfortunately CASA is the main regulator and any organizations must obey them, a second organization may seem attractive initially to some but it becomes a more complicated political game, I was originally a member of HGFA then AUF then CASA PPL now PPL and RAA so what next. I like and want to help HGFA in every way as well as the GFA and ASRA, but please don't try or allow anyone to destroy RAA. We must get the facts, fix the problem and carry on. A second organization could create problems, look at what we are facing now, non renewals or transfers ordered by CASA. The way to establish a second organization by blackmail is not the go, I am aware of a lot of the current problems in RAA and am disappointed by them, I have discussed these with board members and staff, they have taken me serious and tried to fix problems. Nothing is perfect and if there was a second organization, what's the advantage ? what's the saving or benifit ? do we change because CASA will force RAA down the girgler if we don't ? I want RAA to act in the best interest of it's members and currently it seems not to be happening in all cases, my rego was paid last week and due, got label Thursday. I wish to be proud of RAA too and seem to be defending them to all my GA buddies that bag them. I owned a Cessna 172 for many years and will never own a GA plane that has to be serviced by LAME's as this is a bad joke, there are good LAME's and bad ones, when you meet the bad ones you sell the plane like I did, they are protected by CASA and this makes for a big joke, if you don't believe this I will prove it without any possible doubt. Good LAME's are rare and a pleasure to deal with, because of RAA I don't have to deal with bad LAME's. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Doing this without warning is nor fair. If it applies to any it applies to all. Assistance rather than muscling is what is required.This is a lottery that some lose and some don't through no fault of their own regardless of category of aircraft or previous history of operation. You could have been doing the right thing for years. If your plane comes up for processing now you can't use it. What do you reckon this would do to ANY business?. If being sued for years with potential bankruptcy looming over the organisation. ( enough of a scary situation to prevent thinking board members retaining their positions)., then being unable (not allowed) to fulfil obligations to members to keep their planes in the air,with NO alternative process being put in place in the meantime. This is nothing but straight out punishment. I may be the only one who feels this way but to me there is something very wrong with what is going on here. I wonder what Dick Smith thinks about it? He actually flys U/L stuff., and has run CASA... Nev You are very correct and I feel the same as you, this problem along with a few other issues need to be sorted instantly and should never have got to this. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 As we the paying members seem to be continually kept in the dark by our organisation (RAAus) and what its up to, plus the fact our elected representives are forever silent, is it time we organised a group or comittee to represent us the members within the RAAus organisation. The group with the backing of members could act to bring the RAAus back into the members fold so to speak. I think something more than just talk has to be done or we'll be grounded for ever. I am sure there are compotant people out there that could do this and act for the members and not their own self importance or agenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Waiting until February is too late IMO... I know it takes time but I just don't see that as realistic. The crisis is NOW. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Its important to acknowledge that if there is an accident whilst an RAA aircraft is illegally registered it opens up the mother of all legal battles for not only the RAA but also CASA. Stopping the registration process is the most prudent thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Its important to acknowledge that if there is an accident whilst an RAA aircraft is illegally registered it opens up the mother of all legal battles for not only the RAA but also CASA. Stopping the registration process is the most prudent thing to do. I do know what you are on about here, accepting money and flying are two different things, I rego last week and can fly if someones rego is due they can't. be part of the solution not the problem. A few people are playing games and legal BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 The RAA can't make a valid contract if they are operating illegally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
503 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 You can alway fly a powered parachute jc the frog may have a loophole see Australian powered parachute forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Waiting until February is too late IMO... I know it takes time but I just don't see that as realistic. The crisis is NOW. The aim of us all should be to make things better......I would suggest that rapid and possibly rash decisions rarely achieve that outcome all of the time and we can ill afford to make it worse..... CASA have historically shown the are prepared to ignore their Ministers wishes and apparently not end up drawn and quartered as a result. Dick Smith found equally that as head of the beast he was marginalised as well......I would suggest that some planning and careful consideration of all the events may well be more appropriate than action that is just fast. Nev is right, there is no way that this can ever be considered o be procedurally fair. My aircraft doesnt fall due until May next year so 7 months to get resolution. Im hopefull that I wont be impacted but how is it fair that Im not impacted yet others are just because the aircraft that they own happened to be first registered in November..........I dont recall how many aircraft are on the register but, status quo, in one month 1/12th of them will be on the ground. The underlying issue has been known of much longe than 1 month so far. Of those 1/12th some will only be marginally affected, others, who might rely on cross hire to be able to afford the aircraft in the first instance may well be financially damaged.... and others wont be by luck of the month of registration. This is wrong in so many ways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 That is exactly why I am think that February may be too late for some serious action... As much as I understand that we must not act in haste. I guess the only option at this point is to plan for February.. but I can't see potentially 1000 aircraft owners amoung only 13000 being happy with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I think every body should take a chill pill & wait & see what happens.Lets wait until Monday end of business. Then throw the daggers. Peeps , CALM DOWN. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest john Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 As much as we may not like it there comes a time when certain things must end, & unfortunatley although some members may not agree, RAAus use by date is nearing its end. Sometimes we have to take medicine we don't like on Doctors orders to cure a medical condition, otherwise we won't get well. The quickest & most effective method to achieve this unfortunate demise with the least amount of pain is as follows: 1. CASA & RAAus have suspended new registrations & renewals from hereon in & there is no certainty if & when this suspension will be lifted. 2. In the meantime no member can register a new plane or have their existing plane registration renewed which of course is subject to an annual fee. 3. If this saga continues indefinitely for say up to 12 months or more then the entire existing fleet will be grounded & of course no new planes will have been registered, & there will be a considerable loss of revenue for RAAus. 4. Therefore if the majority of members withold renewing their annual license fees for say the next 12 months this will place the RAAus into severe financial difficulties whereby it would be unlikely that they would be able to meet their financial obligations which would then put the RAAus Board on notice to place the organisatioin into voluntary admininstration. 5. There would be some members who would not agree to the above , but there are always the "KNOCKERS" in any organisation, who think they know better, but know bugger all. 6. This would then leave the door open for a new organisation to be formed so that we can then pick up where we left off to enjoy our FREEDOM TO FLY once again without all the political bullshit that is going on at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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