coljones Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 So much negativity, gentlemen can't you see the forest for the trees. My interpretation of the White report is that the Government need to ensure that there is competition in the industry not a tardy she'll be right mate because they have nowhere else to go, they have no choice and therefore, they have to come to us. If ELAAA does work then this will see RAA get stronger and more accountable for it's services to it's subscribers. Things can't get any worse now can they? Some love Holden's and some love Ford's it really boils down to a matter of choice, doesn't it. Also maybe ELAAA is not entering the arena for the sole purpose of running the same race as RAA it may also be covering choices that RAA don't, simple isn't it, it could be filling a nitch that at this time presents itself as a void. We don't actually know what ELAAA stands for nor who it represents. All may be revealed in the fullness of time, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 E&LAAA, now wouldn't Recreational Flying have been a better name 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 People get about with the modern words - transparency and safety oh what fun they have with them. Just consider what they mean - to me they are incorporated into a structure so someone can be blamed. All just because some one did not open their eyes. KP So, tell us, how successful would a new organisation be, without structure? Or transparency, or safety? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 So much negativity, gentlemen can't you see the forest for the trees. My interpretation of the White report is that the Government need to ensure that there is competition in the industry not a tardy she'll be right mate because they have nowhere else to go, they have no choice and therefore, they have to come to us. If ELAAA does work then this will see RAA get stronger and more accountable for it's services to it's subscribers. Things can't get any worse now can they? Some love Holden's and some love Ford's it really boils down to a matter of choice, doesn't it. Also maybe ELAAA is not entering the arena for the sole purpose of running the same race as RAA it may also be covering choices that RAA don't, simple isn't it, it could be filling a nitch that at this time presents itself as a void. It is hard to be positive or negative without information. I don't understand why as far as I can see the identity of the CEO is not public knowledge. If it is too early in the procedure to release this kind of information then perhaps it is too early to be posting vague posts. I understand it may be at an early stage and therefore some specifics may be unknown but surely this group has at least some aims in mind. A very basic and simple question would be, is this body intending to administer licencing and registration of higher performance RA aircraft (Tecnam, Pioneer etc). or with it be exclusively the lower performance aircraft (I fly both). This information must be known and I can see no reason for this not be made public. Is it intended that RAAus endorsements will carry across to ELAAA? Will EAAA have it's own chief instructors? I understand the idea of there being competition between the two organisations, both RAAus and ELAAA will need to compete with each other. They will both need to work hard to sell the advantages of their organisation. My support is up for grabs but it cannot be won just by bagging the organisation I have flown for the last 28 years. I want to know how you can make my flying experience better. Let the competition begin! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I don't understand why as far as I can see the identity of the CEO is not public knowledge. They don't have to have a CEO, they can have a managing director and eliminate one expensive ladder rung. What's happened today sounds more like a leak to me; but nevertheless it looks like the organisation doesn't have much in the way of communicating skills. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I guess that it would be very premature to communicate anything at this stage by them, firstly for strategic reasons and secondly until everything is confirmed. I know I wouldn't mainly for strategic reasons so no amount of pushing and innuendo will achieve anything. Best to wait until they announce the whole package 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Casa will love this, just three small groups to undermine rather than one big one. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 They don't have to have a CEO, they can have a managing director and eliminate one expensive ladder rung.What's happened today sounds more like a leak to me; but nevertheless it looks like the organisation doesn't have much in the way of communicating skills. Ian's post # 108 makes reference to the CEO being a solicitor. History is made today Turbs! I completely agree with your 2nd para! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Best to wait until they announce the whole package That would've been a much better idea but it's a bit late for that now. The whole shebang has had more leaks and leakers, over a longer period, than a federal budget. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Ian pretty please can I be second no hold boat I'm third Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I first joined AUF in 1988 so I have a long history with it, it allows me to do what I want to do. In that time I have flown Thrusters, Gazelles, Tecnams and Pioneers.If a new body is to be successful it will surely need to attract the support of sports pilots. If I am considered to be a potential member of this new organization I will need to be convinced that it will be better for me and for sports aviation generally. Good point I don't even know who I am addressing here. Who is ELAAA? The first I knew of this was a cryptic posting of a company registration certificate, no explanation (and not even posted the right way up). I gather from a couple of the comments that some people were in the know. They may not be fully set up and ready to communicate yet, although a Limited company structure tells me they have little long term hope of survival with the limited money supply in what is essentially a hobby industry. Was post #41 the official announcement of this new venture, if so it was poorly done. Is there a web site? I do see that there is a FB page although I discovered this by accident. Agree I understand from post #108 that the manuals have been written and approved by CASA. When do potential members get to give their input? Wasn't RAUS heavily criticised for submitting it's manuals to CASA without getting input from it's members? When do potential members get to see the manuals. Very good point; why would you leave Big RAA, to join Little RAA? However, you do have the opportunity to inspect the finished manuals and decide whether to have anything to do with them; that's a plus. The heavy criticism of RAA would apply equally to anyone else doing the same things. Who is the CEO? Don't need one; who would clone what there is now? Will this new body only be for rag and tube or all aircraft that I can fly under RAAUS? I want to fly fast and high AND low and slow. Certainly what is needed is a layered body with layered cost levels. I am concerned that we could end up with two weak organisations instead of one strong organisation. I would suggest that in discussing this, people are going to take a wider look at how Self Administration should work. If, as someone suggested, RAA has managed to chew through two thirds of its considerable assets; then as a Limited company, to survive, it has to do one of two things (or a bit of both) 1. Slash costs very substantially and fast 2. Increase income very substantially and fast. There's no reason why this shouldn't occur and the company move forward on a very sound basis; plenty of people in the community pay $2000.00 to $5,000.00 a year for golf club memberships. This other Limited company has to climb the mountain from zero; a massive task. In both these cases, I've yet to see SMS, and Compliance and Enforcement structures operating on the ground, and that involves emplying hundreds of people. What I would suggest is that the minute annual subscriptions start to climb, appathy will turn into action, so I can forsee a third body developing as an Incorporated Association with volunteer SMS and Compliance and Enforcement operations, in much the same way as hundreds of other bodies self administer their sports. Will this kind of split be reflected in this forum? If this forum becomes anti RAAUS and pro ELAAA then I don't see the point in me being here and I would suggest others may feel the same. Believe it or not, most people over the last few years have beeb raising genuine concerns; that is masked by some of the resident parrots, and I'd suggest there will always be splits. Already you can see that ELAAA are copping it too. My negativity is more along the lines of healthy scepticism. Any new body will survive or fail on what it has to offer it's members Any new body needs to heed your message. A new body will have to ensure that it does not do those things that it criticizes RAAUS for doing. If the above rumours are true, that has already started, so unless the reports are wrong, or there is a dramatic U turn, the result will be as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 If it has no members yet, just an executive, then everyone was consulted on new manuals. Theres 100% happines even from the likes of KP? Other point re competing entities, RAA does have competition, PPL, key difference is self maint and lower medical spec. But has addd costs and limitations. Plenty live without that. Casa will go to lengths to prop up RPL concept despite it largely being a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Oh crap just when I was going to burn the storch will hold of until then first on the reg if it comes to fruition off a new organisation Better get it to the legal remove all the repaires that RAA approved like the 12mm hole drilled through windscreen so engine frame bolt could be insurted in to the clover leaf hole in engine frame New windscreen that was okay even when the rivet holes had cracks leading away because the rivet holes in the plexi glass were not drilled 2mm oversize Like the new under caraige that was deformed by 22 mm New engine frame that was distorted by 5 mm New legs that made the wheele spacing 66mm wider Repair the crack in leading edge off right hand wing Replace rudder peddles that are twisted Now you tell me RAA are the going thing (edited: abuse to another member) Bring on a allturnitive I'm go their Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 [ATTACH=full]45977[/ATTACH] This is easier to read Aviators flying into controversy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 This is easier to read Aviators flying into controversy Thanks - much easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 If this goes much further then I am off this site forever. I have been grateful to Ian for the work he has done but sabotaging RA AUS (and that's what it seems has been happening) is the end for me. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 If this goes much further then I am off this site forever. I have been grateful to Ian for the work he has done but sabotaging RA AUS (and that's what it seems has been happening) is the end for me. yeah, me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 My concern is that if this new organisation undermines and weakens RAAus, but doesn't get its own act together, it could go badly for everyone. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 If this goes much further then I am off this site forever. I have been grateful to Ian for the work he has done but sabotaging RA AUS (and that's what it seems has been happening) is the end for me. Where is the sabotage. I am totally sitting on the fence here, and yes it may seem obvious as to which side Ian is on. Having said that at no stage have I seen debate stopped or one side being shown an unfair advantage. Your comment above gives me the impression that you are grateful to Ian for giving you the site to voice your opinion, but as owner of the site you appear to think that he should not have an opinion or be allowed to have a say. How Bizarre. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I have wondered why there was so much unfounded criticism and innuendo about RAA going back a year or two. Now I know there has been a small group of people determined to undermine it and expressing their views on this forum. Like the fundamentalists in the Middle East, they have been cleverly using social media for their own purposes. I do not wish them success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 This is now getting interesting! From this assessment RAAus is safe. Political style election 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 If this goes much further then I am off this site forever. I have been grateful to Ian for the work he has done but sabotaging RA AUS (and that's what it seems has been happening) is the end for me. yeah, me too! Bye bye You are allowed to have an opinion but then so am F'n I, what makes you think you are so higher and mightier than another person's opinion? You obviously agree with all of RAAus attacks against me personally and this site, you obviously agreed with RAAus banning me for bringing RAAus into disreputre, you obviously completely disagreed with the members meeting a few years ago, and you are putting all that on this site yet you continue to come here and reap the benefits. I and this site has had 13 years of crap thrown against it is it any wonder I am bitter against them As I said BYE BYE, and don't bother closing the door as you leave 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 All I am prepared to answer is the question regarding this site. Firstly and foremost, this site supports ALL recreational aviators, that includes RAAus, HGFA, GFA, powered chutes, General Aviation PPL, E&LAAA, and all others in between...this is my perspective as Site Administrator.With that aside, I am personally one that will be waiting in line to change over to E&LAAA on the first day And you haven't bothered to read this post or given any consideration to the help and support this site has given recreational aviators over 13 years Now F off both of you 1 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 It really is amazing how it can be said by certain people in these posts in descibing others as inept and inexperiences or words to that effect and then have the gaul to them say that they are undermining RAA. On reading these posts it would appear that a number of the old diehards are in fact attempting to undermine anyone that comes along in the hope of presenting a fresh approach to the industry. Yes industry, it needs to be run like a business and give it's consumers what they want and need. And why I wonder does CASA always come into the equation as the evil twin sister? Is it not the case that they are the Regulator and instead of performing like spoilt brats when you don't believe that a particular issue should not follow a particular parth then lobby and negotiate don't just pack up your toys and go home to sulk. You all talk about apathy of members. Well hello members don't want to be proactive they want to just fly. It is the organization that is the one that needs to fight for improvement and be compliant at the same time with the regulator. Membership is a state of mind whereas a business has to be proactive and achieve, always improving the product otherwise it will go belly up and it's not the customers that lose out it's the owners of the business. What's the best job you can have regardless of return by way of income, it's working in an area that is also one's passion. ELAAA, well only one of two things will happen it will either succeed or fail and that is a matter of fact and which ever way it goes it will in my view have a positive effect, the flying will benefit because it will in success have another choice and in failure have strengthened the resolve of RAA members and possibly with any luck assisted in getting RAA to get it's act on compliance together. Also I would liken the present situation with ELAAA as being similar to the realease of of a new Ford or Holden, you only get tit bits to think about until the unveiling of the new product, that's business isn't it? You guys i would say are certainly helping by giving it a lot of airtime and maybe in the procees of doing so calling into action RAA. One would have to ask themselves why did RAA take the country road and become a company. My two bob's worth! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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