Wind turbines

[Flying Binghi]

you're at stage 3

Asking a question puts me "at stage three".. ?

You put up the graph "India's Electricity Net Additions" graph. Do you actually understand it ?

 

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[Old Koreelah]

...If the well fed part of the world wanted to lower emissions they should consume less resources, walk more and turn off the air con.

I totally agree with this bit!

[Old Koreelah]

So you see why coal is a dead asset, gas powered electricity can be switched on, scaled up and switched off fairly easily whereas you 30-40 year old coal plants aren't designed to be shutdown. Electricity consumption in the middle of the night is encouraged by a whole raft of off peak consumption incentives for things like hot water and street lighting, anything to keep those coal plants from shutting down.

Please see my reply in Off Topic site (WUA)

[frank marriott]

Please see my reply in Off Topic site (WUA)

That is what I thought the off topic site was for. “WITH”

 

 

[spacesailor]

"One way to ease the problem would be to use less electricity."

 

I / We bought a new gas cooker, after $700 fitting, the grill don't work.

 

It's a Blllooddy ELECTRIC grill on a gas cooker.

 

Nothing on the box to tell you, & shop say's we should have noticed.

 

So much for going OFF electricity.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

I see we are getting bombarded with graphs/charts again. I'm still waiting to hear what this graph is supposed to be telling us ? .

regardless of what the gov says to placate the coal lobby the investment is obvious[ATTACH=full]54834[/ATTACH]

Hmmm... somehow I doubt fly_tornado will talk much sense about this 'graph' as it appears the so-called 'facts' it is based on are made up.

From the Adani attack book The Coal Truth by David Ritter - "...Graphs and data might have their origins in fact, but it is only to the initiated that they construct a visible story..."

 

Obviously, as i'm not "initiated" into the green religion I will never see what the true believers see..

 

As to what is actually happening in India. From this months news -

 

"...The government and CIL have undertaken various initiatives to improve transportation of coal. These include increasing rake availability for coal transportation, improving rail infrastructure for increasing evacuation capabilities, and investing in new rail lines. CIL targets supplying coal to all pithead power plants through roads and conveyor belts, with a view to freeing up railway rakes for long-distance transportation.

 

The Coal ministry has also proposed investment of Rs 200 bn by CIL over the next 5-7 years to own 1,500-1,600 rakes. Start of the eastern dedicated freight corridor in 2021 is also expected to improve rake availability. The government is also encouraging the use of coastal shipping and internal waterways to increase coal evacuation and reduce transportation costs. These measures are expected to increase coal availability..."

 

Why availability of coal at plants has been hit, IIFL explains

 

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[Flying Binghi]

Meanwhile, over in Germany...

 

"After the German government decided to reduce subsidies to the solar industry in 2012, the industry nose-dived. By this year, virtually every major German solar producer had gone under as new capacity declined by 90 per cent and new investment by 92 per cent. Some 80,000 workers — 70 per cent of the solar workforce — lost their jobs. Solar power’s market share is shrinking and solar panels, having outlived their usefulness, are being retired without being replaced.

 

Wind power faces a similar fate. Germany has some 29,000 wind turbines, almost all of which have been benefitting from a 20-year subsidy program that began in 2000. Starting in 2020, when subsidies run out for some 5,700 wind turbines, thousands of them each year will lose government support, making the continued operation of most of them uneconomic based on current market prices. To make matters worse, with many of the turbines failing and becoming uneconomic to maintain, they represent an environmental liability and pose the possibility of abandonment. No funds have been set aside to dispose of the blades, which are unrecyclable, or to remove the turbines’ 3,000-tonne reinforced concrete bases, which reach depths of 20 metres, making them a hazard to the aquifers they pierce."

 

Bloodbath in the German solar “industry” — without subsidies 80,000 solar jobs are gone « JoNova

 

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[Marty_d]

FactHunterThe oceans were eons ago FRESH WATER, are you blaming humans for making it salty ?If enough "wind farms" are built it cause or contribute to the earth's spin slowing, making us all HEAVY.

 

But what I was told could also be Hearsay.

 

spacesailor

It's a matter of scale Spacesailor.Covering the entire land area of the planet with wind turbines would be like increasing the length of the fuzz on a tennis ball by a couple of microns.

 

This planet weighs 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg and spins at 1,600km/h. That's a hell of a lot of inertia.

 

 

[coljones]

Meanwhile, over in Germany..."After the German government decided to reduce subsidies to the solar industry in 2012, the industry nose-dived. By this year, virtually every major German solar producer had gone under as new capacity declined by 90 per cent and new investment by 92 per cent. Some 80,000 workers — 70 per cent of the solar workforce — lost their jobs. Solar power’s market share is shrinking and solar panels, having outlived their usefulness, are being retired without being replaced.

 

Wind power faces a similar fate. Germany has some 29,000 wind turbines, almost all of which have been benefitting from a 20-year subsidy program that began in 2000. Starting in 2020, when subsidies run out for some 5,700 wind turbines, thousands of them each year will lose government support, making the continued operation of most of them uneconomic based on current market prices. To make matters worse, with many of the turbines failing and becoming uneconomic to maintain, they represent an environmental liability and pose the possibility of abandonment. No funds have been set aside to dispose of the blades, which are unrecyclable, or to remove the turbines’ 3,000-tonne reinforced concrete bases, which reach depths of 20 metres, making them a hazard to the aquifers they pierce."

 

Bloodbath in the German solar “industry” — without subsidies 80,000 solar jobs are gone « JoNova

 

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An opinion piece about an opinion piece (probably about an opinion piece) - what has this to do with aviation?

[fly_tornado]

type "german solar electricity production" in google and it links to this lovely graph from the 30.4.17

 

maybe the companies that built those solar farms went broke but the farms are still connected to the grid

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The economics of NEW coal (Super critical) but not counting on unproven sequestering is nowhere near like the cost you get quoted for EXISTING amortised and worn out, inefficient, polluting and UNRELIABLE relics of 40 years ago." New" coal is not cheap. "Clean" coal doesn't exist. Its nearly pure CARBON and some hazardous by products like all deposited materials from millions of years ago, contain. It also can't start and stop quickly and has to operate at a fixed output to reach the efficiencies they talk of. It will never operates as a stand by facility. We should be celebrating the closing of Hazelwood probably the most polluting power station in the western world. We seem to have quickly forgotten the out of control fire in the Brown coal seam nearby that made the area uninhabitable and severely affected locals health a few years ago. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Powerlines ARE a hazard to aviation especially ones spanning valleys. Wind farm turbines are easy to see. They are on higher ground and are visible for miles. They (like powerlines on towers) can be a good navigation aid when you have them on a WAC chart. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

solar and storage is killing off any new small expansions of the grid now, the guy that installed our solar mentioned how the week before he installed a $40k system on a farm.

 

 

[M61A1]

solar and storage is killing off any new small expansions of the grid now, the guy that installed our solar mentioned how the week before he installed a $40k system on a farm.

And what of the millions of others who are struggling to afford the house, let alone a solar with battery system. What is the environmental impact if everyone suddenly bought batteries that need replacing every few years?I would love solar with battery, but:

 

1. It's 3 times the price for the same output,

 

2. You don't just install and forget, the batteries need maintenance, lose efficiency and need to be replaced.

 

3. To get one that will comfortably run workshop tools (yes, I work on stuff when it's cloudy and/or dark) I would need an even bigger system than I have.

 

4. Supplimenting it with a diesel genny sort of defeats the purpose and annoys the neighbours.

 

It's not as environmentally friendly as you would like to believe.

 

What if people do start using electric cars? Just the trickle charge is about 2400 watts, that's like have your kettle running non-stop, and usually this needs to happen at night.

 

 

[kgwilson]

And what of the millions of others who are struggling to afford the house, let alone a solar with battery system. What is the environmental impact if everyone suddenly bought batteries that need replacing every few years?I would love solar with battery, but:1. It's 3 times the price for the same output,

 

2. You don't just install and forget, the batteries need maintenance, lose efficiency and need to be replaced.

 

3. To get one that will comfortably run workshop tools (yes, I work on stuff when it's cloudy and/or dark) I would need an even bigger system than I have.

 

4. Supplimenting it with a diesel genny sort of defeats the purpose and annoys the neighbours.

 

It's not as environmentally friendly as you would like to believe.

 

What if people do start using electric cars? Just the trickle charge is about 2400 watts, that's like have your kettle running non-stop, and usually this needs to happen at night.

If you are already on the grid, stay on it. If you are not the cost to get connected can be astronomical depending on the distance from an existing supply. That is why people are putting in their own systems. They have independence at a cheaper cost than getting connected. The 40k system that went on to a farm was likely considerably cheaper that getting poles & wires to the place. Yes current technology batteries need maintenance but so do poles & wires. That's called the supply charge on your power bill.Mainstream electric cars are a little way off yet and when they are commonplace, city dwellers will benefit more than out of towners. If you live 200km from nowhere it is hard to imagine how you could reliably transport yourself around using the current electric technology. Development though in this area is exponential and the problem may well be solved with new technology and inventions. I cannot see into the future but I do know that holding on to old, outdated, polluting energy generation is slowly killing the planet. Luckily that is on the decline.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I read that there have been about ten aviation fatals due to wind turbines, I think all in Europe. Only one hit a turbine. The others were CFIT or structural failures trying to avoid them. I guess this happens in low vis conditions. Seems an OK safety record considering how many turbines there are.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes . coming off the grid is a big jump. I weld so I can't see it happening for me. Electric cars, solar fed are a good idea but not that easy to organise as you will be using it during the day.. Charging from the grid just transfers the pollution to somewhere else if it's Coal. The batteries are the quantum leap in cost.. The panels and inverter are dirt cheap and getting cheaper. Solar is plentiful when you need airconditioning so that fits well especially of you orientate your panels with a westerly bias to get more efficiency in the heat of the afternoon.. Perhaps hydrogen from solar as a back up.? You can run an ordinary motor on hydrogen or use a fuel cell. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

And what of the millions of others who are struggling to afford the house, let alone a solar with battery system. What is the environmental impact if everyone suddenly bought batteries that need replacing every few years?

what if the batteries don't need replacing? and you never have shown any concern for housing policy apart from wanting to drop ordnance on it

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

type "german solar electricity production" in google and it links to this lovely graph from the 30.4.17maybe the companies that built those solar farms went broke but the farms are still connected to the grid

[ATTACH=full]54974[/ATTACH]

And there is the problem with solar. Only in Italy can you get 24 hours continuous output from a solar panel..

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[spacesailor]

"Only in Italy can you get 24 hours continuous output from a solar panel"

 

No

 

It's Greenland I believe,

 

The sun hangs to the south for days on end, 24 hours a day, but still miserably cold, so any electricity would go straight into heating.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

"Only in Italy can you get 24 hours continuous output from a solar panel"NoIt's Greenland I believe,

 

The sun hangs to the south for days on end, 24 hours a day, but still miserably cold, so any electricity would go straight into heating.

 

spacesailor

Heh, few years ago some Italian solar subsidy 'farmers' would hook up their diesel generators to the power grid and get paid for the solar power they produced. Obviously, somebody in authority eventually realised what were going on..

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[fly_tornado]

You got that story back to front, the Italians are using solar to produce bio diesel

 

Eni will invest EUR 7 billion in Italy over next four years

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

You got that story back to front, the Italians are using solar to produce bio dieselEni will invest EUR 7 billion in Italy over next four years

So they'll be investing Seven Billion dollars in Italy in the next four years..........

...so that's how they will powering their solar panels. Get carbon credit money for producing bio-diesel, then use that bio-diesel to power their solar farms and get the massive solar payouts.

 

Them Italians are smart. Have a look-see at the Eni oil field assets. Africa, Russia, etc...

 

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[fly_tornado]

But that's how the government incentives works, your tax money paid for my solar panels and my insulation and now I get free electricity.

 

 

[M61A1]

But that's how the government incentives works, your tax money paid for my solar panels and my insulation and now I get free electricity.

Don't you mean...But that's how the government incentives Socialism works, your tax money paid for my solar panels and my insulation and now I get free electricity stuff.

That seems to be the crux of the matter, it's got nothing to do with environmental responsibility, just getting someone to give you a free ride.