DrZoos Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 frank how reliable is that white line as the total flight path? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 frank how reliable is that white line as the total flight path? Just a plan view, no opinion, just result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Just a plan view, no opinion, just result. Thanks Frank. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think the reason a substantial number of pilots attempt the turn back (im not saying that is the definite cause of this until a report is finalised with witness testimonies) during an EFATO is this (from the report posted earlier) The pilot commenced a steep turn to the left, apparently choosing to attempt to regain the aerodrome rather than commit the aircraft to a hazardous landing in the timbered area ahead. The aircraft,however, lost height rapidly and crashed amongst the trees. during an EFATO, no one really knows how they will react until it happens for real.. then your thinking reverts back to its basics. in these cases, appears to be the fight or flight response. as the report stated, your first response is to avoid danger, in this case, a hazardous landing in the trees, subconsciously you know the airfield to be safe, you have flown out of them all your career and that though about safety being at the airfield is well reinforced and embedded in your thought processes, so its an automatic mental response to try and get back there in a panicked state of an emergency.. and so, the decision is made on the subconscious level. Why do we practice forced landings? and glide approaches? so it becomes a imbedded mental process that we can draw on in case of an engine failure at altitude. sadly, im i know i am guilty of this as well, is we do not practice for such events often enough, especially the EFATO scenario. so how do we change our thinking patterns so that our initial reaction in a EFATO scenario is to look for an option that doesn't involve the turn back? well, practicing for these events will be a start, but doing them regularly will eventually build mental models in your head you can revert back to on a subconscious level when the shite hits the fan, and panic stations are on full i cant believe this is happening mode. so think back to when you really practiced for an EFATO? or even an engine failure at altitude over unfamiliar terrain? As Nev (facthunter) pointed out, its up to you, the PIC, make sure you get the higher level training, or practice emergency procedures regularly... and take the opportunity in your BFR's to get an instructor to run you though them as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 This just goes to show that a whole lot of the speculative posts in this thread have no justification at all. Turnback!! What Turnback? This is the result. The real cause may never be known other than an apparent power loss either partial or total. Just a very sad and undeserving end, maybe only due to the resultant fire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Perhaps we should be deliberately practing stopped fans towards trees and other obstacles, so that if the time ever comes at least we will be ready to pick gaps and have the courage to crash it in to softer folliage, non trunks etc, rather than stall and spin elsewhere, trying to avoid where we may need to go by necessity... If anything it might force us to quickly identify potential survivable gaps and make better choices when required in split seconds. I hope it never happens to any of us, but im sure just simulating it or even thinking about it could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Perhaps we should be deliberately practing stopped fans towards trees and other obstacles, so that if the time ever comes at least we will be ready to pick gaps and have the courage to crash it in to softer folliage, non trunks etc, rather than stall and spin elsewhere, trying to avoid where we may need to go by necessity...If anything it might force us to quickly identify potential survivable gaps and make better choices when required in split seconds. Perhaps we should just fit ballistic chutes to all aircraft...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 This just goes to show that a whole lot of the speculative posts in this thread have no justification at all. Turnback!! What Turnback? This is the result. The real cause may never be known other than an apparent power loss either partial or total. Just a very sad and undeserving end, maybe only due to the resultant fire. No mate he was gone before the fire,the engine has come through the firewall into the cabin apon impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Perhaps we should just fit ballistic chutes to all aircraft...? would not have helped in this instance Windsor68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Loosing Maj is pretty tough on everyone, particularly myself and even my wife who has never met him, but spoken to him/interacted with him via internet sources. Like many I have flown with Ross and have known him for several years. Like many also, it put the wind up me big time about flying, and if it happened to him what chance have I got - but I knew that Ross would be upset that I would even think of that. So that very day with the encouragement from my wife I went for a fly in memory of my mate, Ross. Since then I've flown to Qld in my Pacer for its annual - which Ross was hanging out to have a fly in, sadly that will never happen now. Accidents happen, we aim to prevent as many as possible, but sometimes our time is up and it's not our day - do you live life in fear of moving another step? or carry on in a sensible safe manner? What a tragedy for his wife and daughter, I hope they have been getting looked after well. Just my opinion, but I don't think he tried a turned back... think about it for a sec, full power take off would require significant right rudder, best rate of climb to clear the trees... the noise stops, speed drops off instantly, right rudder input would make it roll right, witness's suggest he was at 100,200ft... that's approx 1.5 seconds before you're on the ground. Lightwing's are short fuse aircraft and are very yaw sensitive - someone also mentioned it was a short wing version - that almost makes the whole idea very viable. I will miss your encouragement and friendship Ross. Tom 9 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 COULD [/b]happen to you. . . .I hope you remember what you said when it does matey. . . let's all see how YOU deal with it. Perhaps we might be calling you an arrogant Fooker after you die too. . .? who knows] Thanks for the classy post Phil-perhaps you might like to read my post again(eightyknots see above) to correct your aberrant interpretation of it. We're you by any chance in the Mod Plod? Hiya Doc. . . My initial post was made as I thought that yours was “A bit Off” considering how recent the accident actually was mate, and how raw friends and relatives would obviously be feeling. Some wag on here has a signature strip which says something like, . . .” There are Known knowns, and there are also Unknown knowns. . . Considering the thread related emails and Private messages I have received following my post, which wasn’t meant to be insulting, more surprised than anything else. . , and certainly not arrogant by the way. . ., perhaps Irritated / sarc,. . .but, as above, there are known knowns. As a result of information received, I now know some knowns ( Amongst you blokes ) which were hitherto Unknowns to me, without putting too fine a point on it. As I said in print. . ., I never knew the subject of the thread personally, only inasmuch as he came over to me, several miles remote in my little hangar office in the UK,. . ., as quite a nice, friendly, knowledgeable person. . . . .I always take as I find. I obviously cannot comment upon additional information kindly supplied by friends in your neck of the woods Doc, so If my post offended you, I can only apologise, and draw a line under it. ( hopefully ) SO to summarise: Arrogant ?. . . - never been called that before,. . .too thick and unnedificated.. Classy ? . . . - nice thought but,. . .Nah, dirt common. Being as thick as pigsh!t,. . .I can’t think of anything more erudite to say. So I won’t. Kind regards, Phat Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Phil, you are one of a handful of characters (as was Maj) that make me log on here every day. Don't be discouraged. 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 ...Like many also, it put the wind up me big time about flying, and if it happened to him what chance have I got - but I knew that Ross would be upset that I would even think of that. So that very day with the encouragement from my wife I went for a fly in memory of my mate, Ross... We all react in different ways; after one of my old motorcycling mates was killed on a tight corner we gathered for his farewell, rekindled happy memories, then all went back to riding road bikes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 When I was instructing, a guy I had taught, made a fatal decision to come down from 2000` agl , in his GTX Quick Silver 500, to buzz his wife and children, who were driving home from a local fly-in...He hit a power line, crossing the road and crashed onto the highway in front of the car....How do I know this?...Another guy I had taught, stayed at 2000` agl, in his Drifter and witnessed it. I was totally devastated and didn`t want to instruct anymore, finally, I came to the conclusion that the pilot and he alone, made that fatal decision... The burden lifted from my mind and I carried on instructing. Frank. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 To be sure, I was about to ask Frank if the x was where it crashed. Leaves me shaking my head, wondering just what did happen! Frank many things are possible, I doubt if EFTO and turn back is it, maybe there was a snake in the co Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 To be sure, I was about to ask Frank if the x was where it crashed. Leaves me shaking my head, wondering just what did happen! Frank many things are possible, I doubt if EFTO and turn back is it, maybe there was a snake in the cockpit and he was going for the cross strip? Something went wrong with that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Richard, It probably will be one of those situations where we will never know exactly what happened. I believe in personal responsibility! Ross made the decision to fly and I would like to believe, he made the decision to the best of his ability. We may all have something to learn from the accident but Ross was at the controls, at the time. Frank. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hopefully there were eyewitnesses who can help with the investigation , it was pretty early in the day though .... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docjell Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hi Teckair- just FYI - the Lightwing involved, 25-431, was apparently,co-owned by Pat McGrath and Bill Clayton prior to being sold down south some years ago. It was purchased by my neighbour Marty Wheeler who flew it for a yew years prior to its recent sale to Glen(surname Unknown) who hangered it at Stark Field, just up the road from Marty's strip. Cheers 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Perhaps we should just fit ballistic chutes to all aircraft...? I know that fitting BRSs will cost a lot for many aircraft, and sometimes the BRS cost may exceed the value of the plane. For others such fitment may be technically impossible. Nevertheless, it is definitely worth thinking about. Nevertheless, I am not sure what height Maj's engine trouble started and whether or not a BRS would have helped at this height. I fear it would have made very little difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The problem is NOT a piloting one.. It's a psychological issue. It's the way we are wired, and there isn't much we can do about it.. I've maintained for a long time that we are not training for this correctly. Ross agreed with me. Motz, Would you like to elaborate on what you have said?...I`m very interested ( I reckon there will be others) to know more about what you think. Frank. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Apologies for funny? Mistake push!!! Stupid Ipad. Must have knocked it. ( Not the thread but thinking the icon should be a double tap to save this keep happening). Anyway here's a pic of Majors Albatros cockpit 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Apologies for funny? Mistake push!!! Stupid Ipad. Must have knocked it. ( Not the thread but thinking the icon should be a double tap to save this keep happening).Anyway here's a pic of Majors Albatros cockpit[ATTACH=full]39735[/ATTACH] Actually since I updated to a new iPad Air the like buttons for me do have a double tap requirement, so I'm not sure if it is a deliberate change or just a fluke but I certainly like it and think it needs to be like that for all mobile devices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I know that fitting BRSs will cost a lot for many aircraft, and sometimes the BRS cost may exceed the value of the plane. For others such fitment may be technically impossible. Nevertheless, it is definitely worth thinking about.Nevertheless, I am not sure what height Maj's engine trouble started and whether or not a BRS would have helped at this height. Galaxy says minimum deployment is 65m in optimal conditions with plane in upright position... with a loss of power at 100-200 feet and than the time to bank beyond control, there is no way Ross would have been saved by a chute ...it may have slowed it somehow, but it certainly would have been a very serious accident still 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The assumption that the pilot was trying to turn back may not stand scrutiny when you look at the air shot and the position of the impact . Perhaps there was an in flight fire or control problem Pretty heavy impact if the engine came through the firewall. I'm not prepared to draw any conclusions, now. Hope he didn't suffer . Nev 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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