cooperplace Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 maybe he was trying to get to the cross strip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Most don't know what they would do with any certainty till the situation happens. You just don't know what will trigger your response at the time. During training, provide all the facts applying to the situation and educate the pilots of the dangers involved. With SLOW(er) planes like we have the land into wind option is a stronger recommendation as you are really going quite slow with the stall speeds we have.( LOW airspeed minus the head wind component) How much damage you get is related to speed. Kinetic energy is M times (V squared) and how quickly it (Velocity) changes (what you hit and crumple rates etc). The best thing you can get from any accident is knowledge, with a view to improving everybody's chances. Nev 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I was told it happened at Donnington Airpark which has quite a long strip but I guess that was wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRamsay Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Dangerous activity? Risk management principles say that the Risk or degree of danger can be calculated as Probability (100% = certain) x Consequence (Life/$$$). Unfortunately, the Consequence factor in aviation is so often serious injury and high expense or fatal. Probability is the one thing we can work on with success but can never eliminate. The following picture reminds us of the consequences available to pilots not having a good day. And you can add to this bad luck, misfortune or whatever you want to label it. If I didn't think I could get the Risk down to a tolerable level, I wouldn't fly. Motorcycling on a big road bike is similar in concept but the calculation, in my view, favours aviation in a light aircraft over a high powered road bike. Each to their own. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 At least you could survive that tree crash Don .... Should I ever have the misfortune to put my Auster down in heavy timber I can at least slow her down to below a 25 Knots (indicated) speed at impact if I can see where I am going. God forbid I ever get that practice. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I have had,. . .in my flying lifetime, FOUR engne failures, three total, and on partial,. . .but in each case they were at such a height that I could do something about it sensibly,. by whih I mean, Turn back, or turn sufficiently to effect a safe landing in all four cases. I have never experienced a failure of engine power at a very low height, so I REALLY DON'T know what I would do, / would have done in those circumstances. In Ross's case, I wonder if he was more concerned with not breaking an aeroplane that didn't belong to him, ( I know an Instructor - 17,000 hours exp. who tried the same thing. . .but it went wrong and he trashed it, and is currently sh1tcanned from doing further test flights. . .. . . which,tp me is a travesty of justice. . . .) rather than worrying that much about his own survival, given that he'd already been involved in an accident many years before when a Cessna Pilot did the "Turn-Back attempt routine" whilst he was a rear set passenger. . . . leaving him seriously injured when it went wrong. . . . . I have a reasonably well deserved reputation as a bit of a hardbloke, ex-mil. . . . .reasons not given. . .but my eyes welled up with tears when I heard about Ross's death. . . even though I never met the bloke in the flesh . . . . One poster here has called him an arrogant fooker,. . . I think this is more than a little bit harsh,. . . . If you fly aircraft for a long time,. . .one day it COULD happen to you. . . .I hope you remember what you said when it does matey. . . let's all see how YOU deal with it. Perhaps we might be calling you an arrogant Fooker after you die too. . .? who knows . . .? Mine were ( As I'm sure you are wondering. . .) 1) Piper Arrow 3 / 4 Pob. . . - Engine fail off the end of a runway at 900 feet AGL,. . .successfully turned left and landed deadstick on cross runway,. . .burst one tyre due to high speed touchdown and heavy braking. 2) C-182, 4 Pob, @ 750ft, Scottish Islands,. . . again,. . .successful turnback, this time,. . .Only JUST made it to the runway, ( Otherwise would have been in the water . . .! ). . .no damage to the aircraft, oil pump fail. . .. 3) Leaving airshow at RAF Kemble. . EF at 1100 feet ( Easypeasy turnback, circuit and ldg. . . ) and finally Husbands Bosworth Gliding club . . .Gemini Flash 2 Trike. . . Engine fail ( 2 strroke ) at 600 feet,. . .landed straight ahead on golf course,. . .players mildly annoyed,. . . .but when I stopped rolling on the 3rd fairway,. .. they just played on past me. . . . . I am very lucky to have survived my E.F.A.T.O. s. . . . . . Some of us are not so lucky. . . . .but PLEASE don't get smarmy about it until after it has happened to you. . .talk is cheap. . 5 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 someone used a word a.........t but I don't think anyone used any f%%k words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I have survived a lot of engine failures but none at that time during take off where you are temped to turn back hopefully I would get that right. I don't feel comfortable on strips where you have nowhere to go. To try to stay safe I do my best to stay balanced and practice glide approaches. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I had a C172 cough and splutter on me out of Port Macquarie years ago at about 300 agl, way too low for a turn back. Interestingly I had no temptation to turn back, I just looked straight ahead to put her down, but then again there wasn't heavy timber under me at the time. I am not afraid to admit I nearly sh1t myself. She cleared herself but I swear my sphincter was tight all the way to Taree where I landed. In retrospect I should have circuited and landed back at Port and checked her over. At the time I thought it was ice, cause she ran as smooth as silk afterwards a lot smoother than my tachycardia. I think I was about 30 years old at the time ... long long time ago .... I had a couple of 2 Stroke shutdowns at Mittagong in the 80s, but they were in a Frank Bailey Mustang, you just pointed the nose at the ground and flared and stopped in about 40 metres. The bigger faster ones are the scary ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Not sure this thread is an ideal thread for listing how many engine failures individuals have had/survived as it started out with a great deal of empathy and offering of condolence for the family and friends. For me its two complete failures in the circuit - one on takeoff as I passed the end f the runway - straight ahead landing, - one late downwind and after regaining control (engine exploded and threw aircraft sidewards) only option was straight ahead Like some on this thread I have tried over the years practicing at height the 'impossible turn' and know that its not technically impossible IF you get everything exactly perfect ... and I practiced a lot to get it 'perfect' and know in both my heart and mind that I am not that good a pilot and the circumstances of the world will never deliver me a failure in a perfect situation to complete the 'impossible turn' I have to date (and hope I always will) followed my training and accept that I have to land ahead - I may get a bent plane or beat up landing ahead but it is a controlled minimum speed crash and a lower risk option for me than going for the 'impossible turn' where when it goes wrong I am likely to be hitting in an uncontrolled and higher speed crash. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 someone used a word a.........t but I don't think anyone used any f%%k words. No, it wasn't anything like a word starting with F as suggested. To put the record straight here is what was really said: Dazza- hang up whatever you feel appropriate- but Ross's demise on Sunday just gone was - some would say- predicable, very sadly. My old PPL instructor, who had known Ross for many years up here, said it was a 'matter of when, not if.'... Various contributers to this thread have expressed dismay at this event and opined tha we need to'tighten up training procedures' - they are fine - our training in this field is perfect. Ross - operating from Starke Field 8kms up the road from my shared airstrip, was hugely experienced , very opinionated and rather arrogant , I believe turned back because his long experience made him believe he could outfly the laws of physics. I humbly have no idea how I would react to the same scenario - I would probably die. ... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Aviation is full of Alpha males. Many who have a huge amount of knowledge, ability and experience gained over decades are susceptible to coming across as arrogant and whether this is deliberate or just a part of the individuals personality seems to me to be part of what we now term "Human Factors". I know of a number of these individuals and while they often provide very valuable information and advice, can be friendly and forthcoming on almost anything aviation and provide assistance without even thinking about reward, I remain somewhat wary when the attitude on some issue is tinged with a level of arrogance. I am sure that those individuals don't see it in the same light, but then why would they. We have all probably had bad instructors as well as good instructors so how can this arise if the process of getting there is supposed to sort this out? The difference is often the personality or attitude of the instructor not his knowledge, ability or experience. Something that perhaps needs to be done is a psychologist report be part of on-going reviews, particularly when an individuals attitude is called to question by that persons peers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docjell Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 COULD [/b]happen to you. . . .I hope you remember what you said when it does matey. . . let's all see how YOU deal with it. Perhaps we might be calling you an arrogant Fooker after you die too. . .? who knows] Thanks for the classy post Phil-perhaps you might like to read my post again(eightyknots see above) to correct your aberrant interpretation of it. We're you by any chance in the Mod Plod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 rocks or roses .................. maj would be enjoying this farewell maj 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Attached is an email from Ross with pic of his Albatros. He made a little write up each time he sent a pic :) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 People feared those 912s even then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Hitler was made in Austria. He started Corporal punishment. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Aviation is full of Alpha males. Many who have a huge amount of knowledge, ability and experience gained over decades are susceptible to coming across as arrogant and whether this is deliberate or just a part of the individuals personality seems to me to be part of what we now term "Human Factors". I know of a number of these individuals and while they often provide very valuable information and advice, can be friendly and forthcoming on almost anything aviation and provide assistance without even thinking about reward, I remain somewhat wary when the attitude on some issue is tinged with a level of arrogance. I am sure that those individuals don't see it in the same light, but then why would they.We have all probably had bad instructors as well as good instructors so how can this arise if the process of getting there is supposed to sort this out? The difference is often the personality or attitude of the instructor not his knowledge, ability or experience. Something that perhaps needs to be done is a psychologist report be part of on-going reviews, particularly when an individuals attitude is called to question by that persons peers. At the risk of casting aspersions on my profession, sadly I don't think a psych report would offer much useful information in most of the cases. It definitely happens with the big players but not so much the small ones, because the big players can afford to recruit based on desirable characteristics (as a preventative measure) but when it is a hobby there is no such restriction. I'm not surprised in the least that a highly experienced pilot would attempt a turn back despite training and advocating against it. With a split second to make a judgement call, and given that the exact circumstances are usually unknown, I suspect that plenty of people would do similarly. Incidentally, I would be happy to offer my time to look at the HF side of accidents. There is always plenty to be learned, and if nothing else I'm sure that Maj would have been quick to encourage others to learn from the accident. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty 1 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In many incidents like this there are more than one factor that lead up to the final outcome. Was there an total engine out? Was there a definite turn back? Was there a miss or a vibration? Was there a partial power loss before a total fail? Did Ross think "this is not feeling right, might do 1 quick circuit and land? Was the morning being rushed? Was Ross on top of his game both mentally and physically that morning? Was the field suitable to conduct test flying from. Was there an airframe or control failure? Was there an inflight fire? The list goes on and all these factors may or may not lead to an outcome as tragic as this one. When any of these factors are involved, what would you do? If more than one is involved, what would you do? Ross with his experience would have been aware of these and many more things that can go wrong with this pastime of ours and I believe he made a decision to accept the risks he knew of to enjoy the pleasure of flight. An engine out does not always mean death. A turn back does not always mean death. There must be other factors involved. We don't know yet and we may never know. Let's assess what has happened to try and learn and then make a judgment as to wether we as individuals are prepared to take the risks, as Ross did, to enjoy our pastime, BUT we must do it with RESPECT! Respect for Ross who chose to fly that morning with all his knowledge! Respect for Ross's loved ones in their time of grieving! Respect for Ross's mates who have lost a good friend! Respect for the owner of the plane that Ross was putting back in the air so he to could enjoy the pleasure of flight that Ross did! (If it was your plane how would you feel?) Ross had many more hours and experience than most of us and he chose to fly that morning so let's show him and his family and friends the respect they deserve at a time of great loss. RIP Ross Millard. 3 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Did a lot of it (HF) years ago. CASA were going to use it in analysing incidents.( Why not know what made a pilot decide to DO what he/she did?). This to me was real progress. They very rapidly realised they couldn't apply the punitive system they love to have and stopped that aspect of inquiry. pretty fast. One of the reasons I'm untrusting of their motives. ( there are plenty of others). Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Investigators are trying to determine whether engine failure caused an ultralight crash that killed north Queensland pilot Ross Millard. Recreational Aviation Australia examined the remains of the plane yesterday, which crashed on a private airstrip at Woodstock on Sunday. The body's president, Michael Monck, said it was believed the engine failed immediately after take-off, but it was destroyed by fire. "There's very little of the aircraft left," he said. "It appears there was quite a lot of heat around and that's melted away most of the plastic but even aluminium components of the engine have been destroyed in that fire." Mr Monck said it would speak to friends and witnesses to try and determine events leading up to the crash. "We'll look at the weather, we'll look at the environmental factors around the flight," he said. "We'll examine what factors were affecting the pilot, if any, leading up to the flight. "We'll obviously investigate the wreckage but we'll also consult with people who were close to the pilot, so that means talking to friends and other pilots who might have been around." http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-01/investigators-examine-north-qld-ultralight-crash-debris/6989754?section=qld 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron5335 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Like at lot of other contributors to this site , I never got to meet Maj, and only knew him via his posts that now seem haunting when you scroll through some of the topics. My condolences goes out to all the family and friends that he made throughout his life and the grief that they must be going through at the present time. Naturally, in trying to determine what happened there are many scenarios being put forward in an effort that pilots can make some sense out of it, if nothing more than to regain or hold onto their confidence. I wasn't there, I haven't been told anything, but the astonishing thing for me is the cone marker in the foreground of the photo, that I assume is the runway, and the wreckage just meters away. So close, yet so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docjell Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Even if you did get it around, you are now coming in downwind with low airspeed, not a good situation to be in. The choice really is , A controlled crash, with airspeed control all the way, and a good flare at the end, ...or an uncontrolled crash , with zero airspeed control after stalling the inboard wing, at low altitude !..........I do like Kevins anaology of "straight ahead to the hospital, or turn back to the morgue !".......................................................Maj... Very sadly Ross - I like his analogy to- very appropriate. RIP 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Maj Millard said: ↑ Even if you did get it around, you are now coming in downwind with low airspeed, not a good situation to be in. The choice really is , A controlled crash, with airspeed control all the way, and a good flare at the end, ...or an uncontrolled crash , with zero airspeed control after stalling the inboard wing, at low altitude !..........I do like Kevins anaology of "straight ahead to the hospital, or turn back to the morgue !".......................................................Maj... Very sadly Ross - I like his analogy to- very appropriate.RIP Thanks for finding Maj's quote and sharing it docjell! Very valuable advice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It's very ironic if you think about it. Nev 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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