turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 If I were to put Solar on my roof, It would take 10 years to pay it off. Life of said panel guaranteed 10 year. Then dispose of the old & buy new. NOT very economical, or have I missed something ?. spacesailor If I were to put Solar on my roof, It would take 10 years to pay it off. Life of said panel guaranteed 10 year. Then dispose of the old & buy new. NOT very economical, or have I missed something ?. spacesailor No you're pretty much on the money. Victorian Premier, Daniel Andrews wants solar on every roof in Victoria, and that's a great idea, but the pricing is so ridiculous that no one including the government can achieve it, the designs being installed vary from good to unworkable, the installation quality the same, plus some operators are just ripping people off, the price for selling back to the griod is a fraction of what the power companies normally pay, in short, Pink Batts on steroids. Could be fixed with a concerted effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McDowall Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 should they desal so a farmer can plant cotton? Actually we are using the desal plant in SA so that water is available to grow fodder which uses a lot more water than growing cotton. I think " Your attitude about water says a lot about your view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 No you're pretty much on the money. Victorian Premier, Daniel Andrews wants solar on every roof in Victoria, and that's a great idea, but the pricing is so ridiculous that no one including the government can achieve it, the designs being installed vary from good to unworkable, the installation quality the same, plus some operators are just ripping people off, the price for selling back to the griod is a fraction of what the power companies normally pay, in short, Pink Batts on steroids. Could be fixed with a concerted effort I understand that stockpiles of dead solar panels are starting to accumulate and no one seems to know what to do with them, as they are currently mostly unrecyclable and toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Well I may as well join in for a Rant! In my lifetime (61 years) the following DOOMSDAY predictions have been made. We will not have enough petroleum to last the next ten years. Didn't happen! There's a hole in the ozone layer ( we will be fried like prawns on the BBQ ) Didn't happen! Climate change ( Debatable) But for the people with the glass half full mentality ! Lifespan has increased by probably 15 years ( a lot of my Dad's mates dropped dead of a heart attack in their 50's ) Vaccinations have almost eliminated most fatal diseases Most Australians living standards are the highest on record Australia is the safest it has ever been ( even if the media tries to make out it isn't ) We haven't had a World War for 74 years We have freedom of speech and the rite to have a democratic vote ( see Hong Kong ) The old I'm doing it for the grandkids is BS! If your fair dinkum do the following Get a bike ( pollution free ) Turn off your heating or cooling or go off the grid Stop flying your aircraft (waste of fuel ) Grow your own vegies Get a vasectomy (the world is over populated ) Stop eating lentils ( to much methane ) where do I stop? I think we all need to stop being political hypocrites ! Maybe we need another world war to give us something to really worry about ! Or maybe we have it too easy and don't appreciate how lucky we are. END OF RANT ! Just on ozone depletion, it did not go away by itself we took action and restricted the chemicals that were causing the damage.. Google it. I am extremely concered about climate change but strongly against shaming. I still fly a plane but do what i can. I am not a catastrophist but the one certain thing is that we will move past the fossil fuel era one way or another. Why not have determined but but orderly transition. The stone age did not end because they ran out rocks they moved on because smart progressive people were determined to move ahead. Certainly there were missteps along the way, this is the way societies or individuals flourish and progress. Consider the change that has occured over just the last 30 years and extrapolate 30 years into the future. Will we still be burning black rocks to power our society? Is this the pinnacle of technological development? I think not. The early car was probably much more expensve and less reliable than the horse but smart people could see the potential and governments built highways. I have recenttly gone into semiretirement and as a bit a hobby I have started investing on the stock market. Some advice I was given was to invest in companies that reflected my vision for society. I believe this is good advice. My suggestion is if you believe coal is the only way then invest your money in it. If you are pro nuclear then do something in order to further it (I am not totally antinuke. If you think electric vehicles are silly then invest in a car company that does not or will not go EV (although good luck finding one) I guess what I am saying is perhaps indstead whinning do something positive towards the world you want to see wether that be progressive or back to thd 50s. End of rant (maybe) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Well this debate is raging more vigorously than the current bush fires, has anyone from either camp had their beliefs changed by the excellent arguments presented. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Constantly flowing rivers is a modern construct designed to keep lakes and people comfortable in South Australia and along the river, No problem until, keeping it flowing means the rest of the basin is totally dry and has none. Australian "nature" does not need constantly flowing rivers. Right now Murray is in near flood to deliver environmental requirements to lower reaches of river It had years of zero flow before dams and weirs were built. The Darling system delivers big quantities of water however highly unreliable. You seriously think South Australians needs the many thousands of GIGA litres for drinking!!! Last year they were pumping environmental flows for parks and gardens in Adelaide, saving their entitlements for later use. Around half is lost in evaporation in the lower lakes which are an artificially fresh, supports leisure activities and a relatively small amount of farming I believe If you think Australia can afford this you might need to review what this water would created for the country in exports and jobs Presently not much is being used for farming. The CEWH is the largest holder of water by a long way and it mostly heads out to sea or evaporates. Right now SA has 100% water allocation in addition to massive environmental flows, Rest of the basin has near zero and is financially collapsing. The reason for this is the equal representation in the Senate, any move to alter or equalise federal water issues is controlled by one of the least populus states. If Govt wants things to get things through the Senate they have to appease SA senators 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Actually we are using the desal plant in SA so that water is available to grow fodder which uses a lot more water than growing cotton. I think " Your attitude about water says a lot about your view. " Growing fodder with desal at least feeds something but is a short term high expense stop gap of a very political nature. It is a very dumb way to get feed for stock and definately a case of government picking winners- those who get to grow with the water will get windfall profits I expect. This is costing hundreds of millions of public money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Jetr, Would you prefer all water for upstream farmers to use at will and bugger anyone below? We know water is a flood and drought issue but hiving it off just destroys the system that would get those high flows in rain times. Look at Mexico, the USA has created a desert by taping all the flows of the Arizona river before it flows past the border. It has had massive effects and all so those up stream can grow anything they want, so Las vegas and Nevada can be spots of green in a desert. California gets to grow almonds. Wars will be fought over water access in the future. China is damning every source it can and stopping flows into border countries. Even our military accept this will cause war. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Just on ozone depletion, it did not go away by itself we took action and restricted the chemicals that were causing the damage.. Google it. I am extremely concered about climate change but strongly against shaming. I still fly a plane but do what i can. I am not a catastrophist but the one certain thing is that we will move past the fossil fuel era one way or another. Why not have determined but but orderly transition. The stone age did not end because they ran out rocks they moved on because smart progressive people were determined to move ahead. Certainly there were missteps along the way, this is the way societies or individuals flourish and progress. Consider the change that has occured over just the last 30 years and extrapolate 30 years into the future. Will we still be burning black rocks to power our society? Is this the pinnacle of technological development? I think not. The early car was probably much more expensve and less reliable than the horse but smart people could see the potential and governments built highways. I have recenttly gone into semiretirement and as a bit a hobby I have started investing on the stock market. Some advice I was given was to invest in companies that reflected my vision for society. I believe this is good advice. My suggestion is if you believe coal is the only way then invest your money in it. If you are pro nuclear then do something in order to further it (I am not totally antinuke. If you think electric vehicles are silly then invest in a car company that does not or will not go EV (although good luck finding one) I guess what I am saying is perhaps indstead whinning do something positive towards the world you want to see wether that be progressive or back to thd 50s. End of rant (maybe) This has no bearing on the bushfires, it belongs on What's Up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Growing fodder with desal at least feeds something but is a short term high expense stop gap of a very political nature. It is a very dumb way to get feed for stock and definately a case of government picking winners- those who get to grow with the water will get windfall profits I expect. This is costing hundreds of millions of public money. Right now a section of Western Queensland, Western NSW, Central+Western Victoria and part of SA is in drought. Farmers from the areas with normal weather have jacked up hay prices. Under those market conditions fodder grown by desal water may well be profitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Just on ozone depletion, it did not go away by itself we took action and restricted the chemicals that were causing the damage.. Google it. I am extremely concered about climate change but strongly against shaming. I still fly a plane but do what i can. I am not a catastrophist but the one certain thing is that we will move past the fossil fuel era one way or another. Why not have determined but but orderly transition. The stone age did not end because they ran out rocks they moved on because smart progressive people were determined to move ahead. Certainly there were missteps along the way, this is the way societies or individuals flourish and progress. Consider the change that has occured over just the last 30 years and extrapolate 30 years into the future. Will we still be burning black rocks to power our society? Is this the pinnacle of technological development? I think not. The early car was probably much more expensve and less reliable than the horse but smart people could see the potential and governments built highways. I have recenttly gone into semiretirement and as a bit a hobby I have started investing on the stock market. Some advice I was given was to invest in companies that reflected my vision for society. I believe this is good advice. My suggestion is if you believe coal is the only way then invest your money in it. If you are pro nuclear then do something in order to further it (I am not totally antinuke. If you think electric vehicles are silly then invest in a car company that does not or will not go EV (although good luck finding one) I guess what I am saying is perhaps indstead whinning do something positive towards the world you want to see wether that be progressive or back to thd 50s. End of rant (maybe) Octave I agree with you 100% I was just taking the P!ss I just don't like the DOOMSDAY approach ! The thing that annoys me, is that most of the climate change posters do the following: Drive cars Eat food from the supermarket , covered in plastic, grown with water that has been robbed from the environment Go on holidays overseas on aircraft polluting the upper atmosphere Buy clothes that are made by 12 year old children in a sweat shop being payed 20 cents an hour Have the latest mobile phone that is made from plastic and metals that are supplied from mining that rape and pillage the earth Drink coffee on the way to work that is produced in a 3rd world country that slash and burn jungle But who am I to judge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 This has no bearing on the bushfires, it belongs on What's Up. Turbs my post is in the vein of many other posts including your own but If my post is more offesive or off topic than any other then I am happy for a modertor to delete it. I always try to keep my posts respectful and to the point. If the majority of posters feel my post are over the top please let me know an will cease posting I have no wish to offend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Sorry double post ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Turbs my post is in the vein of many other posts including your own but If my post is more offesive or off topic than any other then I am happy for a modertor to delete it. I always try to keep my posts respectful and to the point. If the majority of posters feel my post are over the top please let me know an will cease posting I have no wish to offend. You didn't offend me. We are all entitled to an opinion ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 And hay prices does? There's been a determined effort to obfuscate, and it might die out or it might not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Octave I agree with you 100% I was just taking the P!ss I just don't like the DOOMSDAY approach ! The thing that annoys me, is that most of the climate change posters do the following: Drive cars Eat food from the supermarket , covered in plastic, grown with water that has been robbed from the environment Go on holidays overseas on aircraft polluting the upper atmosphere Buy clothes that are made by 12 year old children in a sweat shop being payed 20 cents an hour Have the latest mobile phone that is made from plastic and metals that are supplied from mining that rape and pillage the earth Drink coffee on the way to work that is produced in a 3rd world country that slash and burn jungle But who am I to judge! I take your point, that is why I mentioned my dislike of shaming others. The way I see it is ths Edison probably worked by candlelight while he invented the light bulb. The people who invented the motor car more than likely rode a horse while they came up with a better way. The truth is we work with what we have available to us whilst we work on something better. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Turbs my post is in the vein of many other posts including your own but If my post is more offesive or off topic than any other then I am happy for a modertor to delete it. I always try to keep my posts respectful and to the point. If the majority of posters feel my post are over the top please let me know an will cease posting I have no wish to offend. No one said you did, but there's a climate change thread on What's up, which you well know. Unfortunately, even though we only needed some very basic understanding of how global warming will effect fires and fire fighting if it's true, and how it will affect it them if it's not true, because we have to buy and lease equipment to cover both possibilities, we're getting this constant questioning and assertions that fit in better on the What's Up threadand would have long term benefit there for those interested in Climate change which is a huge subject in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 No one said you did, but there's a climate change thread on What's up, which you well know. Unfortunately, even though we only needed some very basic understanding of how global warming will effect fires and fire fighting if it's true, and how it will affect it them if it's not true, because we have to buy and lease equipment to cover both possibilities, we're getting this constant questioning and assertions that fit in better on the What's Up threadand would have long term benefit there for those interested in Climate change which is a huge subject in itself. Yes I did make this point earlier. I believe I I said that I was uncomfortable posting on this forum and would rather discuss it on whats up. I do feel that you have posting assertions on this forum which wether or not you started the drift should not go unchallenged. If thread drift offends you then lead by example and dont do it yourself. I think if you reread this thread you will find that I have only ever replied to posts that may have already drifted and I have always been polite if forthright. Happy to consider examples of my post that do not conform to these principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I take your point, that is why I mentioned my dislike of shaming others. The way I see it is ths Edison probably worked by candlelight while he invented the light bulb. The people who invented the motor car more than likely rode a horse while they came up with a better way. The truth is we work with what we have available to us whilst we work on something better. Good points all BUT Edison worked alone/with a small group - cars evolved from steam motivated vehicles, toys of the very wealthy. The challenge of climate change & pollution is unlike anything that has faced our species before. It is unlikely to be solved without genuine input from the worlds (are at least most) governments. Therein lies the problem - self (national ?) interest over scientific advice. Unfortunately we are still driven by the same selfish self preservation (enrichment) urges of our forebears. I suspect that the most primitive amongst us, our leaders (psychopaths all), will not move on this until their personal futures are put in jeopardy. I wish I had a solution but I fear it will take something like world dictatorship to achieve a meaningful direction/movement away from the cesspit we seem to be entering.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 As things deteriorate the blame game will accelerate and protests will evolve into conflict and anarchy. Check out Hong Kong. I hope I'll be dead by then. There are 80 million extra people every year. Something will eventually have to give & I don't want to be around to see it. Pessimistic view I admit but pretty likely. I hope I'm wrong. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Ok, out of left field, but I tried this the other day and it works. Like sweetcorn? Buy it on the cob (NOT wrapped in plastic, still in the leaf thingys over the cob). Bung it in the microwave. 4 minutes. (5 for 2 cobs). When you pull it out, the leaves protect your hand. Peel, butter salt pepper, serve. No plastic anywhere near it! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 The UK was the first county in the world to have a Nuclear energy policy & the first Nuclear power station was opened at Calder Hall in 1956. At its peak in 1997 Nuclear provided 26% of the UKs energy needs falling to 19% by 2012 & now to 18% about the same as wind with most Coal plants closed. In May they ran for 2 weeks with no coal power & coal now produces only 5% of their electricity, down from 40% in 2012 & is to be phased out altogether by 2025. A number of old nuclear plants have closed & the plans for new plants may not happen as renewables come on stream in a fraction of the time and cost with no waste disposal problems. In 2018 wind & solar accounted for 28% of the countries electricity generation. Gas which accounts for about 40% will also decline. On 14 May 2019 the UK produced 25% of its electricity needs from the sun. This is what can be done when there are aggressive targets and supportive government in a country a twentieth the size of Australia with 60 million people. These figures add up to more than 100%, but are still a good base for making a comparison with the cost of power to the consumer and amount of emissions between the UK and Australia. There are some variables that need to be factored in for Australia like: Much hotter climate, particularly across Nth Qld to WA, with a lot more power demand for AC Longer hot season where temperature may go above 35 degrees Much bigger transmission distance with Australia's Power Generator locations, so a huge amount of generated power lost just powering the grid. It's not clear what those UK percentages are, and how close they get to meeting Peak Power demand for all hot days, but after having decades of near perfect performance (for Victoria at least) we are hovering on having blackout days like we did in the 60s, hence the importance of Peak POwer capacity. At 5.30 yesterday afternoon, on the AEMO dashboard we (except for WA) were working to these figures Power Demand: 26075 Megawatts Wind/Solar Supply: 1910 Megawatts So wind Solar: 7.3% These are hard, provable figures Unfortunately, I was silly enough on January 28 this year not to take a screen grab of the Dashboard figures of the Peak Power Demand at that time So I've extrapolated these figures from memory (This is just for an example; if anyone wants to demand empirical figures, you have your links to the dashboard for the coming summer to do your own research) Peak Power Demand: 396,500 MW Wind/Solar Supply: 3965 MW So Wind/Solar: 1% That was Australia's (less WA's) electricty generation performance on a very hot day this year. Two major coal-fired generators were out of action and they will eventually come on line to give us a buffer In terms of Bushfire issues, because multiple fatal fires have been caused by failures in the grid infrastructure the grid itself should come under scrutiny, and that changes the whole equation of power generation. the optimum for country Australia would be power generated at the homesteads and sheds - no grid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Around half is lost in evaporation in the lower lakes which are an artificially fresh, supports leisure activities and a relatively small amount of farming This is about to come to and end. Broken Hill's growth meant a more reliable waster supply was needed so NSW has built a pipeline direct from Broken Hill to Wentworth, so it can pick up both Darling water and take advantage of the Murray backflow if the Darling dries out. This will allow two, I think, of the Mendindee lakes, the highest evaporating ones where the MDBA have had to get water out of them or lose it, can now be closed down, for a good boost in water. The States all get an agreed amount of water allocations, and they in turn share their allocation out through water licences. SA simply called up their allocation and some politics started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Yes, Decentralised power systems are far more efficient and much easier to do with the users owning the grid. Ie homes, businesses , farms etc. From standalone to local networked new suburbs, townships - community non profit model is ideal. Maximise the benefits and lowest cost. No profit motive just fair payment for renewable power. The economic multiplier for a community is huge. All that power and its jobs is local, as is the billing money. Plus bills are a lot smaller overall. So more money can be available to spend on stuff we need for a good life. But big business, power companies and money men hate that idea. To them democratization of the power to the people kills their old business model. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Just in case someone wondered... I do not take overseas airtrips, never have. I have a frugal scooter for most travel or use public transport . I borrow a car if needed. I buy very little packaged food. I travel only if really needed. Have not been in a jet for 11 years at all. I do not buy much and use wisely My prop flying is rare and not as a just burn fuel exercise. So I accept and adapt to the reality. Each makes their own choices. My family are farming stock since the 1830's . Merinos, crops and even cotton. I think I have a reasonable take on things, I am not a latte sipping urbanite in nature nor training. I started the multidisciplinary team at UWS Richmond in agriculture/horticulture and social ecological systems in 1997 to develop industrial Hemp in Australia. We got a research licence to grow and trial. There was no pay in it. All money went to research costs. The government barriers were massive. Industry hated us. Farmers of cotton were very keen to get involved. The levels of cancer and other effects from the pesticides drove them to us. No amount of effort could overcome the political nunskulls for another 25 years. Then they saw a buck in it personally and changed. I also work in disabilities, always have. I am not talking out my arse. I have no vested interest other than concern for our blue orb and life on it. I don't earn a cent from any side. I do not begrudge a person their lifestyle or job but collectively we must change course. The sooner we do the easier it is. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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