Lowering Class E between Melbourne and Cairns

[Bosi72]

Current proposal to lower Class E from 8500ft to 1500ft.

https://engage.airservicesaustralia.com/lower-base-class-e-east-coast

[kasper]

Well that's going to be fun if it comes to pass... 1500ft AGL over how much of the east coast?

 

Makes that 20km offshore transit at 1000ft to get around Coffs look rather the norm going forward.

 

The cynic in me asks if CASA/Airservices etc are really wanting ANY private recreational flying or do they really just want airliners to play with and airforce to avoid? 

[Thruster88]

Getting past Coffs will be easy for any VFR aircraft with a transponder. Bit late for Mooney man. There could be a push to get all aircraft fitted with transponders.

[Bosi72]

The area affected is where the current LL Class E is 8500ft and plan is to be dropped to 1500ft.

I believe this should be at least 2500 or 3000ft to allow those wishing to remain in Class G and fly hemisphericaly (1500ft east/2500ft west).

The picture from the brochure is not fair as 1500ft is represented as 1/3 of total airspace, where in reality it is 2.5%.. 

[Bosi72]

11 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Getting past Coffs will be easy for any VFR aircraft with a transponder. Bit late for Mooney man. There could be a push to get all aircraft fitted with transponders.

To my understanding Mooney pilots were denied entering controlled airspace.. Existing class C will remain the same.

[kasper]

21 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Getting past Coffs will be easy for any VFR aircraft with a transponder. Bit late for Mooney man. There could be a push to get all aircraft fitted with transponders.

And if you are an ultralight a transponder fit takes your airframe out of self install and maintenance of another system that must them be installed and maintained by a LAME .... this is really starting to look like the end of ultralights in any form where the owner maintains an airframe that can actually be used for recreation.  

[SSCBD]

I wonder if our leaders at RAA are going to pushback or do anything about it ? 

[facthunter]

A transponder is mainly used in conjunction with surveillance Radar (which they were going to reduce or eliminate), for identification. You have to be visible (on radar) anyhow. .  You are identified by changing course on an instruction to do so, or select a discreet frequency when requested..  Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

40 minutes ago, kasper said:

And if you are an ultralight a transponder fit takes your airframe out of self install and maintenance of another system that must them be installed and maintained by a LAME .... this is really starting to look like the end of ultralights in any form where the owner maintains an airframe that can actually be used for recreation.  

I am NOT an expert on this. I thought that there were portable transponders you could stick on your window or put on a wing tip? Like SkyEcho on the OzRunways website. 

[Yenn]

Where did you hear that proposal? I keep a fairly close ear to what goes on and I haven't seen it.

[kasper]

29 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I am NOT an expert on this. I thought that there were portable transponders you could stick on your window or put on a wing tip? Like SkyEcho on the OzRunways website. 

Skyecho is not a transponder - it’s an EC device - electronic conspicuous- and transmits around 40 miles at allow aircraft in flight to use their EC systems to see you.

 

A transponder is seen much more widely and must be certified install as primary radar integrated the transponder to the controllers view.  They are very different beasts.  

[horsefeathers]

sooo, let me see if I have this correct.

 

I will only be able to fly my 19 reg Jabiru above 1500ft IF i have a TSO'd transponder?

Without a transponder, I would be limited to 1500ft for the majority of my flying around Gympie /Sunshine coast

A trip from Gympie to Bundaberg would be limited to max altitude of 1500 ft?

 

If so, this is an unbelievable proposal, and basically a nail in the coffin of RAA

[onetrack]

The OneSky program is designed to increase safety for RPT traffic, integrate military and civilian ATC, and to obviously ensure that ADS-B is fitted to as many aircraft as possible. The programme is well advanced, and there appears to be little allowance for basic RA type aircraft in it. It appears to be designed to push RA-type aircraft into more remote, lightly-controlled areas, where they can "play", with as little impact on "real" aircraft as possible.

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/innovation-and-technology/onesky/#:~:text=OneSKY was established to deliver,airspace users over 20 years.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, kasper said:

Skyecho is not a transponder - it’s an EC device - electronic conspicuous- and transmits around 40 miles at allow aircraft in flight to use their EC systems to see you.

 

A transponder is seen much more widely and must be certified install as primary radar integrated the transponder to the controllers view.  They are very different beasts.  

However, SkyEcho is an approved device for Class E operations in Australia.

But it must be registered and set up to transmit your unique Hex code.

 

From the UAvionix Aust. website:

 

The SkyEcho2 portable ADS-B transceiver has been accepted by CASA as an approved Electronic Conspicuity (EC) Device as an enhancement to "See and Be Seen" from 16th July, 2020.

SkyEcho2 is the world’s first commercially available portable ADS-B IN and OUT system. Complete with an integrated TSO certified SBAS GPS and barometric altimeter, SkyEcho2 transmits your aircraft location, altitude, and identification via 1090MHz ADS-B, enabling you to be seen by nearby aircraft equipped with an ADS-B receiver. In Australia, the integrated ADS-B IN receiver connects wirelessly to your favorite Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) application adhering to an industry-standard protocol for ADS-B traffic – including OzRunways and AvPlan EFB.

SkyEcho2 brings the safety benefits of ADS-B to the cockpit without the high cost of installation. As unmanned systems are increasingly equipping with ADS-B receivers as a Detect and Avoid (DAA) technology – broadcasting your location via ADS-B enables the drone to remain well clear of your location, keeping the skies safer through cooperative communication.

Under the Australian Government’s Civil Aviation Order 20.18 Amendment, new standards have been published to encourage voluntary use of ADS-B OUT systems on Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aircraft. The aim of the amendment is to reduce the costs of installing air-to-air surveillance technology in VFR aircraft with a view to enhancing the basic VFR safety principle of “see and avoid.” In addition to the approval of EC devices like SkyEcho2, the use of non-certified ADS-B enabled transponders like tailBeaconX – EXP is permitted on experimental and light sport aircraft (LSA).

Edited January 22, 2021 by Garfly

[SplitS]

Who the hell wants to fly IRF under 10K??? They have gone insane.

[facthunter]

I can't see the transponder as any long term proposal It's obsolete. Nev

[horsefeathers]

From the Sky Echo "Conditions of Use" letter

 

The SkyEcho2 portable ADS‐B transceiver has been accepted by CASA as an approved Electronic
Conspicuity (EC) Device as an enhancement to "See and Be Seen" from 16th July, 2020.
Conditions of Use Apply
The SkyEcho2, and other EC devices, can be used voluntarily in aircraft operated to the Visual Flight Rules
(VFR) below FL290.
An EC device cannot be used instead of a transponder for operations in Class A, C, or E airspace or above
10 000ft AMSL in Class G airspace.
 

 

[Garfly]

CASA  ADVISORY CIRCULAR AC 91-23 v1.0

ADS-B for enhancing situational awareness

 

5.3 VFR aircraft – a rule of thumb

5.3.1 For aircraft operated to the VFR, a general rule of thumb is that a Mode A/C or Mode S transponder is required for operations in Class C airspace, Class E airspace and above 10 000 ft AMSL in Class G airspace.

5.4 VFR aircraft – in more detail

1. 5.4.1  Table 2 provides more detail about ADS-B OUT and transponder requirements for each airspace class as well as the optional capabilities for using ADS-B OUT equipment to enhance situational awareness (or 'BE SEEN') electronic conspicuity.

2. 5.4.2  Owners and operators of VFR aircraft should be mindful that lower cost, lower performance ADS-B OUT equipment (e.g. EC device and integrated TABS device) is primarily intended for air-to-air situational awareness in non-controlled airspace. Apart from an integrated TABS device able to substitute for a transponder in Class E & G airspace, lower cost options are not intended to overcome any existing requirement to carry a transponder, in any class of airspace.

 

advisory-circular-91-23-ads-b-enhancing-situational-awareness.pdf

Edited January 22, 2021 by Garfly

[horsefeathers]

Sky Echo is optional in class E, but it is required to have ;

1. IFR ADS-B OUT; or

2. Mode S transponder7; or

3. Mode A/C transponder; or

4. integrated TABS.

 

So it seems RAA without a transponder is limited to 1500 ft

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by horsefeathers

[Garfly]

5 minutes ago, horsefeathers said:

Garfly, does this table supersede the Conditions of Use letter from Sky Echo?

 

If so, am i am correct in assuming that using Sky Echo will allow RAA access to the lowered E class airspace altitude?

 

 

 

Yes, I believe so.  (Or, in CASA's terms the former's simply 'more detailed' than the latter'.  😉

 

It seems now clear that CASA had their reasons for cooperating with device manufacturers to facilitate all this.

 

But a down side for the professional industry is that if all recreational aircraft start transmitting their ADSB data then the airwaves are going to get cluttered.  This would be less of a problem in Oz, of course, than in the UK or the US.

 

Anyway all this has been well covered in previous threads on this site.

 

(Luckily we have, among us, some avionics geeks who have the low-down.)

 

But now, suddenly, it seems we all need to pay attention.

[Garfly]

12 minutes ago, horsefeathers said:

Sky Echo is optional in class E, but it is required to have ;

1. IFR ADS-B OUT; or

2. Mode S transponder7; or

3. Mode A/C transponder; or

4. integrated TABS.

 

So it seems RAA without a transponder is limited to 1500 ft

 

I believe that you are misreading the table.

To me, it means that in Class E one of those four things is required. I understand that SkyEcho is an Integrated Tabs.

Anyway, you can just go by the plain language statement:  "Apart from an integrated TABS device able to substitute for a transponder in Class E & G airspace,"

[horsefeathers]

Well, I hope to be corrected, but I have always understood that the SkyEcho is only an EC device.

[GraemeK]

1500ft AGL - but which ground level? Or do we need to fit terrain following radar if we want to avoid entering Class E?

[RFguy]

14 minutes ago, GraemeK said:

1500ft AGL - but which ground level? Or do we need to fit terrain following radar if we want to avoid entering Class E?

The F111s that were recently retired had an excellent terrain following RADAR, maybe we could get hold of them and fit them to Thrusters ?

 

Just get a cheapo transponder. On Mode A you will show up, no need to have your altitude encoder tested since its not Mode C (which uses the altitude encoder).

Edited January 22, 2021 by RFguy

[Garfly]

14 minutes ago, horsefeathers said:

Well, I hope to be corrected, but I have always understood that the SkyEcho is only an EC device.

Well, Mark Kyle put us all at rest on this subject last year, right.

I take it that the SkyEcho is indeed an EC device but an Integrated TABS type.