Cosmick Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 A Savannah lost control on landing last Wednesday resulting in Damage to Right Wing, Sheared off Nose Wheel and subsequent Propeller Strike. Well what happened, I was at the controls of my good friend Mark Kyle's pride and joy. Fortunately my passenger and I exited unharmed but I am so upset to have damaged Mark's Aircraft. Andy a pilot mate and I had enjoyed a great flight from Caboolture and around Moreton and Stradbroke Islands. On returning from Moreton about half way the flight was interrupted by a moderate vibration. Understand Marks plane having had the prop balanced runs as smooth as, suddenly a vibration were everything was shaking and we were at 3000' and about 5nm from shore. No loss of power and temps ok, turned on Aux fuel pump and carby heat. Continually talked to my passenger with the numbers and continued on as turning back may have meant a beach landing. Maintained 3000' till Bribie Isl then reduced height in reach of Bribie Golf Courses and Hazelton Airfield. Called straight in 3o at YCAB and landed about 10knt headwind. Relieved to be down safely I made my first mistake, I stopped flying the plane, looked over and smiled at Andy. Being just right of centre I applied pressure to left rudder, have inadvertently applied the toe Brake locked up the left main. It all happened very quickly, we veered sharp left, the nose wheel was sliding facing left and pressure to right rudder couldn't bring it back. Up on right Main and Nose wheel, the right wing impacted the ground and nose wheel sheared off and the propeller struck the ground. Fuel and Electrics off and Passenger and Pilot exited unharmed. Needless to say I've learnt a lot from this incident and Mark has been incredible. I am very concerned to have placed my passenger at risk and very shattered to have grounded Mark. I'll be calling on Ballpoint (Neill) to do a couple of hours to sort this out. 2 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Classic human factors accident Cosmick, lessons we can learn from. Don't feel too bad we've all either had experiences like this or we'll have them. Given the vibration issue, it was a safe result anyway. Sorry for Mark, but thanks for your open and honest story, that took some doing. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Thanks for sharing. Sh!t happens. Try not to dwell on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote="tur Don't feel too bad we've all either had experiences like this or we'll have them. . exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick morawski Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Glad you and the pax are OK, go out and have a fly soon before the heebies get to you. I had the same problem of actuating the brakes while turning, to the point where I adjusted the brake pedals further forward and made it part of my on final checks to have my heels down. Thanks for sharing. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote="tur Don't feel too bad we've all either had experiences like this or we'll have them. . exactly neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 A Savannah lost control on landing last Wednesday resulting in Damage to Right Wing, Sheared off Nose Wheel and subsequent Propeller Strike.Well what happened, I was at the controls of my good friend Mark Kyle's pride and joy. Fortunately my passenger and I exited unharmed but I am so upset to have damaged Mark's Aircraft. Andy a pilot mate and I had enjoyed a great flight from Caboolture and around Moreton and Stradbroke Islands. On returning from Moreton about half way the flight was interrupted by a moderate vibration. Understand Marks plane having had the prop balanced runs as smooth as, suddenly a vibration were everything was shaking and we were at 3000' and about 5nm from shore. No loss of power and temps ok, turned on Aux fuel pump and carby heat. Continually talked to my passenger with the numbers and continued on as turning back may have meant a beach landing. Maintained 3000' till Bribie Isl then reduced height in reach of Bribie Golf Courses and Hazelton Airfield. Called straight in 3o at YCAB and landed about 10knt headwind. Relieved to be down safely I made my first mistake, I stopped flying the plane, looked over and smiled at Andy. Being just right of centre I applied pressure to left rudder, have inadvertently applied the toe Brake locked up the left main. It all happened very quickly, we veered sharp left, the nose wheel was sliding facing left and pressure to right rudder couldn't bring it back. Up on right Main and Nose wheel, the right wing impacted the ground and nose wheel sheared off and the propeller struck the ground. Fuel and Electrics off and Passenger and Pilot exited unharmed. Needless to say I've learnt a lot from this incident and Mark has been incredible. I am very concerned to have placed my passenger at risk and very shattered to have grounded Mark. I'll be calling on Ballpoint (Neill) to do a couple of hours to sort this out. Cosmick: I am so happy that you and your passenger are both OK. On the other hand, I am sad that Mark's pride-and-joy will need some attention. However, lost lives and limbs cannot be replaced but aircraft can be replaceD or repaired so we have to see all this in proper context. Frankly, the toe brakes freak me out. There was a big danger of me doing exactly what happened to you when I was training in a Piper Pacer: it doesn't help that I have size 12 feet which makes inadvertant brake applications very easy. For that reason, I requested that my training be shifted to a heel brake plane (Piper Super Cub). However, I want to get myself a Savannah one day and I will have to come to terms with toe brakes again, it will be unavoidable I hope you can get "back into the saddle" again really soon, Cosmick! Thanks for starting this thread about this incident! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Great post Cosmick. "There but for the grace of God go I" ... could be said by many of us. It could happen to any of us and your honesty is a credit to you. Get back in the saddle with Ball point and get it sorted. I nearly totaled a Citabria and myself and my uncle many years ago from my own poor technique. It rattled me like you wouldn't believe ... I grabbed an instructor immediately and went and did some circuits and sorted it that day. Do it as quick as you can buddy. Glad you walked away unhurt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Cosmick: I'm very pleased to hear that there were no injuries other than a bit of shaken confidence. Very sorry to hear that you bent Mark's baby. I built my own plane so I can relate to how Mark and you must be feeling. I've looked into Neil's plane a couple of yimes and noticed the toe brakes on it and I've often wondered what they'd be like to use. Now I realise that they would take some getting used to and that they are not risk free. My plane was designed with a brake lever on the joystick which I always thought was a bit daggy, but in light of your incident I'm starting to rethink that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 My plane was designed with a brake lever on the joystick which I always thought was a bit daggy, but in light of your incident I'm starting to rethink that. That gives you no risk of unfortunate differential braking, but no opportunity to use it to your advantage either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Cosmick:...... I've looked into Neil's plane a couple of yimes and noticed the toe brakes on it and I've often wondered what they'd be like to use. Now I realise that they would take some getting used to and that they are not risk free. .... They are the only way to go as differential braking has huge advantages over the risks, it is just a matter of getting used to them and using them to their advantage. I hate a single braking mechanism that applies brakes equally (you hope) to both wheels. You have much better directional control with differential braking. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingphot Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hi Mike Glad you got back safely - unfortunate about the plane but that can be fixed. As to the toe brakes issue, I use my plane for training and found students were having trouble with inadvertent braking, especially on takeoff, so I adjusted the brake pedals to lean as far forward as possible. However with Mark being a big fella, he has the rudder pedals in the most forward position possible and this does not allow room for the brake pedal to be leaned forward. Take a bit of practice to always have your heels on the floor to keep toes off the brakes. Cheers Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hi Cosmick, Thanks for posting - we can all learn from your unfortunate experience. As others have said, the main thing is that you and your pax are OK, although it is obviously sad about the plane. We have toe brakes in our Gazelle, and I find them very useful - but then I have small feet, so I do not usually have a problem with inadvertently hitting the brakes! The main problem we have is no parking brake, so sloping ground or windy conditions can be interesting until a quick exit can be made from the cockpit to chock the wheels! All the best with getting back in the saddle, and I hope Mark's plane can be quickly (and not too expensively) fixed. Cheers Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth lacey Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hi Mark ,bad luck about your Sav, glad pilot and pax were ok . cheers gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The main thing is everyone got out without a scratch or even a bruise. I am so happy about this. The plane is just a object that will get scratched and dented and broken at times and this is just how it is with any inanimate object and that is how things are so I am not concerned at all about the damage...this is why I paid for insurance from day one The toe brakes on the Sav do take some getting used to. As part of my downwind checks I shift my feet down the pedals to make sure they are not on the brakes. I do this because (I have size 12 clodhoppers ) in the first 7 hours of flying my Sav I had the same thing happen to me but I had not been distracted by the problem that Mick had all the way back from over Moreton Bay so I managed to rescue the situation because I didn't relax my concentration once I had got on the ground. I should have told Mick this but it became part of my routine and "normal" for me. The other issue that is involved is Mick landed a bit hot similar to my incident all those hours ago. If you touch down and even on all 3 wheels at 45knots and travelling along the ground you still are flying 15 knots faster than the stall speed so the weight on the wheels is minimal this makes braking even more of a issue as you can lock up a wheel easily. then the plane will slew and the nose wheel and other main wheel will have the weight of the plane transferred to them which then makes the skid even worse to the left you then try to bring it back and the nose wheel has so much force going to the left then you jam on right rudder trying get it back and the wheel skids across the ground the nose wheel fork tears out of its mounting holes then of course the nose hits the deck and the wingtip. The lapse in concentration is the human factors part and it is easily understood as flying back for 20 or 25 mins wondering what this rough running engine is doing and if it is going to make it back to a safe landing could happen to any of us at any time. The relief once those wheels touch the ground would be almost felt by anyone except the seasoned professional and then to relax once it is on the ground is understandable. The not being on the ball until the aircraft stops is totally understandable and is a lesson for all I will post some pics of the damage when I get home tonight but to be honest there is very little damage. The main pain is getting the engine out and away to be checked. I have to say the insurance company has been very good so far and it has been quite painless as far as that goes. Not sure what the rough running was I have spoken to a couple of gurus and they say maybe one of the ecu's had died this can cause the engine to run rough...not miss just run rough and because my engine ran so smooth it would have made the situation seem worse. Will get to this later after I will take advantage of this down time to replace the old fuel hose that has a osmosis effect and smells the cabin out after it has been closed up. I will also do the 600kg upgrade now I have the parts and I will probably modify the rudder pedals to make them a bit taller so this does not happened again. It is really simple to do this mod. I have seen on the net somewhere that someone did it to a 701 or a early savannah probably due to the big feet issue I have If you go to the 8 min mark on this video you will see exactly what happened to Mick it is that I hadn't been distracted by engine issues. You can even hear the wheel lock up and the poor glider guys towing the gliders across the strip thought they were going to have to dodge me as it steered for them. This was caused by landing a bit to hot at the time. A stol aircraft like the sav needs to have the nose wheel held off the ground until the nose can not be held up any more and she wont fly. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebutler Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi Mike Glad you got back safely - unfortunate about the plane but that can be fixed. As to the toe brakes issue, I use my plane for training and found students were having trouble with inadvertent braking, especially on takeoff, so I adjusted the brake pedals to lean as far forward as possible. However with Mark being a big fella, he has the rudder pedals in the most forward position possible and this does not allow room for the brake pedal to be leaned forward. Take a bit of practice to always have your heels on the floor to keep toes off the brakes. Cheers Bill Firstly good outcome nobody was hurt. Can confirm having flown Bills A/C the toe brakes on the Savannah do need getting used to. I found taking off to be more of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 They are the only way to go as differential braking has huge advantages over the risks, it is just a matter of getting used to them and using them to their advantage. I hate a single braking mechanism that applies brakes equally (you hope) to both wheels. You have much better directional control with differential braking. Totally agree, David. Landing a tailwheel aircraft on tar without differential brakes means you have no backup if you let it get too far off line for the rudder and tailwheel to handle. My brake levers are on the stick, and are easier to use than I expected. Shorter cable runs, a simple parking mechanism and you can see what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarby Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Mark, as your hangar mate I hope you are back in the air soon. You have had an interesting last year or so, so hang in there, you will be flying again soon! Love that insurance! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 It's insured, the owner is okay, no one was hurt......all up, the best outcome possible. Just don't leave it too long before getting back on the horse Cosmick, your head is in the right place and what you have shared may help countless other people - which is a good outcome too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Here are some pics...you can see where the nose wheel fork ripped out of the strut To be honest there literally is only a days work to repair it when I have all the parts. The longest time is getting the engine disconnected and out and then back in and everything hooked up and the painting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Where she ended up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Get rid of that nose wheel and put a little one on the back and the problem will go away ... oh and move the mains forward a bit ... LOL (sorry he he he ) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Its called the Savannah "J" model...it does have a extended rudder though 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Mark, Sorry to hear about the damage to your bird. Wings still look fine though, nose legs are easy to replace, and you'll probably be lucky with the engine and gearbox. Best news there is that Wal is back in the country and doing work again through Bert Floods. He's the man !....when it comes to Rotax engines and gearboxes. I recently had him do a box for me after a very similar encounter as yours, and it was fine and didn't cost a fortune either. You'll need to read the maintenance manual for the new checks that are required on the engine after a prop strike. It's not that big a deal though, and doesn't require a bulk strip or anything at this stage, if everything checks out ok. By all means get back to me if you need any help there.....I have a friend who had a similar problem with the nose wheel which also required replacing if you need any advice there.........Hope to see you back in the air soon.........Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I often fly with no shoes on so I can really feel the peddles and brakes for this very same reason, I have had a few occasions flying GA and a few ultralights where it really helped, I have differential brakes but prefer a hand operated brake system, a bit more to do with my hands but if I'm at a flying speed I use my hands on the controls and only really use the brakes for ground manipulation and holding still on bitumen or concrete. Mark, congratulations on selecting a very good aircraft, the damage looks relatively easy to repair, hope to see or hear about the aircraft a return to active service. But mostly to the pilot for his honesty and quick post here with the details, letting everyone know they are both safe and well, and what were the contributing factors, this information could lead to saving someone's life without you realising. Good luck. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now