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Thanks Ian, for all your good work. I'd just like to add, to all websites users - Please ensure you assist Ian with the website running costs - it's only $50 a year to become a full member, and even if you're cash-strapped, I'm sure he'd appreciate any level of donation to help offset website running costs, which run into many hundreds of dollars a year. With this site, you get free classifieds, free valuable aviation information, aviation camaraderie, plenty of opinions, and many aviation contact opportunities, so I believe the small annual donation requested is pretty good value.

Beautiful flight to Bairnsdale last week. Family stuff till today. Now patiently waiting for the weather to improve to fly home. Don’t think it will be for a couple of days though.

We can say certification and design would never allow such a situation. But history of the 737 max and self certification by Boeing with minimal federal oversight has allowed the seemingly impossible to happen. Until the final report and one that's accepted by the European safety authorities, we can not be sure. I do not have a great deal of faith in the USA been a beacon of safety over profit, esp given the Trump cuts. This is India's first full modern investigation into a crash and in a country with known compliance issues, as such we need to wait and see. They may do a great job or they may not. Question? Does the 787 have a single FADEC for both engines? Is it not possible the FADEC is the culprit? Computers are never completely failsafe. To openly speculate about pilot suicide whilst possible does the poor families a great disservice and pilots in general. It also shifts the focus away from technical matters that need to be exhaustively tested. I remember everyone blaming the Pilots for the Max 737 crashes and Boeing happy to blame them, even after the second crash. We can desktop cowboy all we want but we don't know what happened.

Also Clear Prop has just about every nut, bolt fastener and clamp...aviation grade...here in stock...and many different gauges of WIRE and transponder kits...just ask for anything you need. In fact, doing so helps this site that you get for free than to just recommend going elsewhere

Hi All, Recreational Flying (.com) will soon come to an end...BUT, Aircraft Pilots (.com) will be born. This site has outlived most other sites around the world having been going for over 22 years now providing a great, informative, helpful, vast resource to all recreational aviators but it is time to be more comprehensive in helping all types of aviators, no matter what you all fly. The features that are available to you cover the needs of all, it is not just a Forum site, but features like Groups, Blogs, different types of Media like Articles, Movies, Books etc, ALL types of Aircraft in the Aircraft Section and the Resources section provides tools for every kind of pilot. Also Clear Prop (.com.au) will also be moving to Aircraft Pilots (.com) and currently a Single Sign On (SSO) is being developed to provide a single registration and login system to both the forums etc and shop. When it all happens both Recreational Flying (.com) and Clear Prop (.com.au) will have redirects to Aircraft Pilots (.com) to make it easier for users to make the transition. HOWEVER, if your Email Address in your account settings here at Recreational Flying (.com) is no longer active, incorrect or not working in any way you will be LOCKED OUT of the new site. To check your email address, click your avatar at the top of the main menu and then click "Account Settings": Thanks and stay tuned for some updates

You can replace the oring. Need to obtain correct one from an aircraft maintenance organisation. If you choose to replace the valve then you need the correct thread, there are several similar looking threads in use. Take your valve to the your value to the maintenance shop and they will advise.

Like any bloke, I enjoy the feel of getting pantyhose off. 😄

Definately a good reason for Lexan screens if you can afford it. Or a open face helmet with bubble screen. I hit a Galah at 120 kmh on a bike 35 years ago and still remember feeling been hit by a gorrilla with a sledge hammer. The helmet screen took a direct hit, not cracked just scratched.

The fuel is supposed to be drained into something like a bottle. (Clear receptical) where you perform certain checks on it. Draining it onto the ground doesn't cover the Function. You should always check the drain has sealed as it can be a fire hazard as well as fuel loss. You can't rule out lumps of solid stuff being involved either, as well as WATER. Often a suitable length of Alu Pipe is used to open the drain valve and conduct the fuel into the vessel more satisfactorily. Nev

We flew Bairnsdale to Tocumwal IFR yesterday. Went the long way as freezing levels were 5,000. Day before they were even lower. W could hear the rescuer aircraft. Horrible feeling, and still hoping for a good outcome.

Another way of supporting if you're not keen on donating, is to buy stuff from his Clear Prop online shop. I bought a couple of things from Clear Prop and they've always been price competitive.

If there had been an engine failure or an almost mathematically impossible double engine failure BEFORE the cut off switch movements it would have shown up on the flight recorder as a reduction in N1, N2. THEY WOULD HAVE PUT THIS IN THE REPORT.

It may just need to be cleaned, buy 1 new one and work on the leaky one as a spare. I'm amazed the other brand used for wing tanks are plated steel and that type once rust had started were not fixable. Who'd have thought to use steel as the best material for parts that are sliding together and their one job is to collect water ready for draining. I changed to the all SS version no more issues but for the other locations I use those brass Curtis and they are the best. The rubber is important for preventing the metal parts from snapping together and on some designs this is enough to break the retainer off and loose the plunger.

I saw a C-180 where the bird went back to the Mainspar. Over Griffith in a Beech A-36 I only just missed a Large wedgetail at 8000 ft Seemed as though it was asleep in a thermal. They will easily go through most light aircraft's windscreens. Nev

The one that hit me was in attack mode. Hit the wing near the fuselage. Wakes you up. Pushed the leading edge back quite a way.

After 30+ years in the computer industry... 'Cannot Occur' is not something I can agree with The coincidental errors occur with usually the most inconvenient timing

Gee, that must have been some decent sized bird. Poor bugger, how unlucky could you be? I can recall a pilot operating a Cessna twin from the W.A. mainland to Koolan Island, way back in the early 80's, or perhaps even the late 70's, hitting a Sea Eagle (Osprey) that came through the windscreen on him. It hit him smack in the face, knocked two of his front teeth out, and actually knocked him unconscious for a short period. The worst part was the bird carcass partly shredded and the cockpit filled with feathers and blood and guts. He managed to keep control of the aircraft, he then turned back to the mainland and landed it successfully. It must have been a very stressful experience.

The people who dream up these scenarios have obviously never studied up on the actual design and construction of the B787 systems. The HPSOV's are solenoid-actuated valves, held in their last-actuated position by spring-pressure detents. It's not possible for a "cracked solder joint" to shut off the fuel to the engines. It requires ELECTRICAL actuation for the HPSOV's to move from any one position to the other. If the electrical current flow ceases, the HPSOV stays in its previous position. This is what Roundsounds is talking about, the amount of "what-ifs" that go into the design of these systems, before they can be certified to be used in commercial, passenger transport aircraft. I would opine it's likely not even possible for a short-circuit in the fuel cutoff switching circuitry to activate a HPSOV from open to shut. The engine ECU logic would examine the electrical messaging and determine whether the signal was false or true, by matching the actual fuel cutoff switch position. Of course, if the circuitry close to the HPSOV was shorted (between the ECU and the HPSOV), then I would imagine there COULD be an unintended valve actuation. But I'll wager the Boeing engineers considered that angle as well, and have done all they could to prevent that happening. This is UNINTENDED, INSTANT engine shutdown we are talking here, it is something that the entire aircraft design would centre around, not happening. But an INTENDED, HPSOV actuation, is going to go through to the engine instantly, it is not designed to be intercepted by either the FADEC or the engine ECU.

As you may have noticed, I asked Ian to add an Electric Aircaft category in the Aircraft Section. While checking Wikipedia for aircraft to include in the profiles, I came across a List of Electric Aircraft. A quick check showed that there are about 80 aircraft in this list. I have compiled a few profiles so far with some more to add. However, many of those listed aircraft are projects which have not made it to prototype stage, or have been cancelled. Others include electric versions of existing ICE aircraft, such as the two-seat Cessna 172 Electric, and electric trikes and self launching gliders. If I find sufficient details to complete a profile, I will add it to the section. In the meantime, I still have more ICE aircraft to add to the other categories. Coincidentally, the current count of profiles is 1872.

According to info from other forum, this is the switch https://octopart.com/4tl837-3d-honeywell-25749542 There are about 8 wires going out of switch and I believe there would be confirmation from multiple sources that the switch was actually physically moved, rather than controlled by some computer. Also one pilot asked another why cutoff the switch, etc... The question remains: why ? I hope that will be revealed in the Final report.

Cannot happen to both engines at the same time (or within 1 sec as per the report). All systems associated with the engines are completely independent. It’s like suggesting a couple of PC21s flying in close formation both flame out at the same time due to a system fault in one aircraft.

Unless you go with Musk or in a submersible. . Regular Inspections and mandated checks help make Aviation safe, Airlines lose their AOC. Types are grounded extra training required Pilots and others are GAOLED. Nev

The physical action of moving a switch from on to off where computers control everything just means an electronic instruction has been passed to the computer controlling the fuel supply to tell the system to shut off the fuel. The physical process is purposely made difficult to prevent accidental activation. If somewhere in the system amongst the billions of transistors present on thousands of chipsets a software malfunction somehow erroneously thought it was instructed to shut off the fuel to the engines nothing could have been done to prevent it.

They are a big bird, for sure, but nowhere near 20 kgs. The references all state around 6kg as a maximum body weight. Their sheer size does make them look like they weigh 20kgs, though. I've raised a wedgetail eagle from a hen-sized chick to full adult size, after we unintentionally knocked its nest down during clearing operations. This was 50 years ago, when there were no laws on keeping or raising wildlife. We called him Samson, but it's quite possible he was a she, because we never sexed the bird. When Samson was full grown, his wingspan was huge, easily 2.4M. Their talons are massively powerful, and razor sharp. They're utterly fearless, as most aviators would know, they see light aircraft simply as intruders onto their territory, and are often quite prepared to confront them. They love attacking and destroying drones. Samson kept every dog that sighted him, utterly cowed. But even a 6kg bird hitting your aircraft when you're travelling at 90kts, is enough to do a lot of damage. Wedge-tailed eagle - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

A report on tonight's news says the black box has revealed that the captain turned the switches off. The FO was flying the plane and was fully busy when it happened. When he noticed, he panicked and asked the captain why he did it, but he did not reply. They have not identified whether it was intentional or accidental.

The 1 second gap switching the fuel switches my not be as significant as some suggest. Time is normally taken from the GPS. Many GPS only grab the GPS output once a second mainly cause it takes time to calculate the position and forward it to other devices. If a second action (second switch?) occurs 2-10 hundreds of a second after the first it may 'wait' for a GPS time to log it. Also 10 seconds to identify a non-standard engine condition, think about it and then react correctly is a very short period of time. We dont know what we dont know.

Happened to me a couple of months ago in the middle of the Nullabor ! Lots of damage

I agree with all your above Onetrack. I programmed decades of automation (though not in aircraft). I had a lot to do with logging plant data, also examining it. And I have a strong troubleshooting background. On that basis I would like to add this: There are lots of posts here that assume the EAFR cannot be wrong, in either the data it logs, or the timestamps. So there seems to be a general acceptance that certain exact things happened at certain exact times. While I have no doubt that the people who design these systems do everything they can to ensure that, we cannot be sure that is so. The data accuracy depends on where the data is sourced and how robust that source is (in this case in accurately reflecting the state of some switches). We should not be simply assuming that the EAFR 'looks' at the switches. It is entirely possible that it 'looks at' something in the software that is interpreting the condition of those switches. In which case there is more to consider than just a couple of switches. Regarding the timestamps: the EAFR is sharing a common central comms bus with many other things. And it is capturing a broad array of data. Whether it grabs all this data pretty much in one burst, or a bit at a time, I don't know. But any major disruption of those central comms...or indeed any failure to answer by whatever provides the data... has the potential to put the time stamps out from the actual events.The timestamp is when the EAFR managed to source the data. We need to be confident of rapid uninterrupted data access for those timestamps to be taken as accurate. I write this not to further muddy the waters. But from the info provided, I think we should be saying 'The switches were logged off/on at these specific times.' Not 'The switches went off/on at these specific times.' I should end by saying that close inspection of the captured data and of how and where that data is sourced would clarify much of the above. And I am hopeful that there are impartial investigators with access to do that.

This guy has a lot of interesting videos on flying in PNG. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt0m3zjCj_oC6d-kUkk6zmw

An Indian pilot demonstrates the operation of the B787 fuel cutoff switches.....

Unless those switches were not locked into that indented position. But left on the Ridge before locked position!. spacesailor

wouldn't get me underground either. when i looked at the rescue pods at central norseman was enough to put me off.

how come your still wearing them now 😁

......records. Cappy's emotional, if verbose, post above is because he claims to have invented surfing in the Big Flood on the Murrumbidgee. He surfed Murrumbidgee King Wave in the 1923 flood from Wagga Wagga to the Gillenbah truck stop on a piece of corrugated iron. Not many people know that in fact surfing was invented in Polynesia by Akamulakikaipo Duke Turbine, the son of the famous Joshua Duke Turbine who rowed a boat from Aberdeen to SanFransico in 1657, island hopping on the way. It was on the stopover at Nikumaroro that he found ........

A few points. Although not mentioned in the preliminary report, the cut off switch movements were likely recorded on the cockpit audio recorders. There is no mention of any engine change in either engine N1, N2, egt ect prior to the cutoff off switch movements that would have required any pilot memory action. The only pilot actions required at that stage of flight is to retract under carriage and pitch for desired airspeed.

A Europa is the best all purpose light aircraft ever designed. With a Rotax 916 fitted it will effortlessly overtake an A320 on final approach and outclimb it on take off and departure performance to the first 3000'; it may require some minor work to render it safe to enable 260kt IAS cruise speeds... It has taken the light aircraft industry until 2023 to catch up and exceed the 80hp Europa's performance class envelope. The Bristell cannot outperform it. The 912iS Sling2, 80hp Sonex and Pipistrel SW121 and JMB VL3 can match it for speed and thats about all. The Risen is pretty much all thats out there that can outperform it and a 914 powered Europa will match the Risen all day every day. And thats mostly about it. None of the above aircraft are able to land or takeoff again where a Europa Mono can. None of the above aircraft can be derigged and loaded onto a trailer and driven away within 10 minutes. None of the above aircraft have a +12G spar and wing purposely designed by an Airbus Aerodynamics Department Chief Director. Except for the Risen none of the above aircraft use less fuel than a Smart Fortwo per ground nautical mile covered. Nobody is able to afford my invoice, self included, for formatting everyone's data sets for them. We are all in Big School now wearing Big Pants playing with Big Toys reading Big Books

Australia's rules for LSA are unique to Australia. Europe is different. USA even more. https://www.australianflying.com.au/recreational/raaus-to-go-the-full-mosaic good to be optimistic but .....

No Johnboy, Cappy was down in Argentina to quell an insurrection of shirty Bolivians, which is the type of work that Turdy and Crappy have been doing since Vicky asked us to sort the Khyber out ("The Khyber is a pain in my arse" Vicky had said, via Winston Churchill who was just another pushy bloke, as Turbs & Cappy saw him whenever they were playing up while on R&R in Londiniam). In this case Tubb was committed to sorting out the Spatleys and Cappy was suppressing the Bolivians, plus giving all of Javier's chainsaws a tune up (Cappy has the highest tune up qualification from Husqvarna). As it turns out, Turbo had misinterpreted Qi's intentions and the fleet were just carrying the Chinese surfing team (Kowabunga Dude) who just wanted a bit of practice ahead of this year's Pipeline Masters.

One would like to think so Thruster. But then we don't know what we don't know, and sometimes that means we don't know what to ask. For instance, a lot of contributors here seem to be locked onto the idea that the FDR is directly monitoring those switches. That may be so, but it is also entirely possible that it is monitoring something in the logic that is 'looking at' those switches. In which case one has to look not only at the switches, but at that logic. And, again for instance, nobody has thought to consider the approx 1 sec between the two switches being logged as off. Maybe that was so. But the FDR is accessing and logging a great deal of data, a bit at a time, presumably by repetitively scanning all the stuff it is supposed to pick up. That approx 1 sec could be due to the scanning rate, the difference between the time it looked at switch 1 then switch 2. For me a major red flag in all this is that it took place at rotation. That, to me, remains an enormous 'coincidence'.

I imagine that in the days from downloading the data from the flight and cockpit audio recorders on the 24th June until the release of the preliminary report on the 10th July the Indian investigation team would have asked many questions about how the fuel cut off system works and how the flight recorder gets information about that system. The language used in the report indicates there was no doubt about what happened.

I just spent TIME on PPRuNe. I'm exhausted. Nev

What the “experts” on this site are missing is the fact engine systems operate independently. There is no way a software fault could cause both engines to fail within 1 second of each other. There is no doubt both fuel control switches were moved to cutoff, then 10 seconds or so later back to run. What hasn’t been established is who did it and why.

Airport are experts at CHARGING. Nev

Of Course that plane had positive climb. You can see it in the Vids. Check what altitude it reached. The ONLY way to do the cut off is to move the switch. The response is to put them back on and try a relight for which there was not enough time. The RAT would deploy with no electrical Power There would be no program to cut off BOTH Engines in such circumstances. I think we can be sure of that as it wouldn't get certification. Nev

It maybe that the USB charger is toasted..they are not high quality if your paying 30 bucks..the aviation ones though are outrageous its like they just charge you 3 times what its worth because its avaiavtion. I should look at building a decent suppressed one. TI have a lot of chips for these now and also lots of application notes to use. I am sure there will be high quality ones

Commercial Aviation is not in the EXPERIMENTAL category. Nev

Not very likely does not mean impossible. I spent 30 years in the computer industry & programs thought to be fail safe did things that they were never programmed to do. With multiple systems checking each other with fail over processes and fail safe logic there should be no way that things like this could happen.Very highly unlikely but not impossible.

As an ex endurance rider (CV19 knocked it on the head for me), I can attest to the effectiveness of wearing panty hose, an absolute must if you want to be competitive (who cares what you look like, if the garb does the job over 80Km - got a few laughs from the ladies though) 😈